Depression Community

Susie-

I returned from my trip late last night. While on my vacation, my wife called and we spoke for about an hour. She told me that she did not miss me. That was tough to hear, but I'm sure that needed to be said. When I returned home, we didn't talk much. Just the same round and round chat about where we stand. So, I wrote her a letter after she went to bed. It is good for me to do that. On top of that, I believe she is reading them. For me, that's great.

I was supposed to return to work today, but I was heading to the counselor first when my car broke down. I couldn't believe it. I keep on the maintenance on that thing like a maniac. Normally, I would have flown through the roof. But you know what? Nothing happened. I could feel that stress a little bit, but it wasn't bad at all. I cancelled and rescheduled the counselor visit. I called the insurance company and had the car towed to the dealership. My cost is going to be $100. The tow and the car are covered by insurance and warranties. My parents have a spare car that I can drive for a few days, so no rental needed for now. The good thing is that my car broke down in front of my house, after I dropped off my daughter at day care. What incredible luck.

After I finished at the dealership, I went straight home to type this. I could not believe that I had next to none anxiety in this whole thing. I can still see my normal responses in my head, yelling, throwing, and smashing. No more. I just wish my wife could have been here to see it with her own eyes.

It is frustrating to know that my changes may not matter to her anymore, but I can only hope for the best. But I am very proud of myself for my calm demeanor during the entire thing. I have this nice smug grin on my face. I can't wait to tell anyone who will listen.

To anyone else reading this, it can be done because I am doing it now. Go to counseling before you end up where I'm at. I am changing myself, but it may cost me too much in the end. It may be too little, too late for my family.

I have my next counseling session next week. I can't wait to brag to him about it. It is a great feeling to know that it is working. It took a while, but I know I am making progress.

hello, S --

wow! what a good experience, if having your car break down can be said to be a good experience! good for you!

you should be very proud of the progress you are making by working so hard, S.

-- susie margaret

Susie-

I wanted to seek your opinion on something that has recently transpired. Over the weekend, my wife and I decided to attempt to try to sell the house. While at lunch this weekend, we decided to also get divorced. I was ready for it. She told me that she was staying just because of our daughter, not because she cared for me. If we stayed together, it would be a platonic relationship. As much as I cared for her, I told her that I didn't want that.

We went home from lunch and starting splitting property. All was mutual and calm. We both obtained divorice lawyers information and were going to make contacts this week. She then invited me to a sports game, which I declined and went to my own social function. While at my social function, I got a phone call from her. We spoke for a while and she told me that if we were to stay together, religion would have to be a part of our life. She finds comfort at church. I just grew up without it and have trouble going. I agreed to go to church with her. I did go and it was an interesting experience. It is a contemporary place, so it's not mainstream worship. My wife also brought to my attention that the church offers a marriage counseling session, to help save and strengthen marriages. She initally said she wasn't sure whether she wanted to go to that class. After church, she wanted to sign up for it.

My question is this: Is the up and down with her decisions a result of her co-dependency or is she just confused? If she doesn't care for me, then why does she still make strides to save us? I am very cautious because I don't want her co-dependency to make her stay. Because I know the end result would be a platonic relationship and boredom. I could understand if she is confused. I have my days as well where I'm not sure if I want it to work anymore. It is very confusing and I am not sure if her decisions are her own or they are her co-dependency speaking to her.

I'm looking for some advice or suggestions. Is there any way I can check to see if it is really her or her co-dependency? I imagine there is not, but I wanted to see if anyone has some ideas.

My next counseling session is this week. I plan on asking the counselor as well. It has been an exhausting weekend, to say the least.

hello, S --

i'm sorry i didn't see your post until now; somehow my customary disorganization was worse than usual this week!

i don't know whether your wife's obvious ambivalence is due to codependency or not. actually, i'm not sure what you mean, now that i think about it, by "codependency" (see PS). setting aside the semantics for the moment, however, it is clear that your wife is ambivalent about staying in your relationship; one day she wants to, the next day she doesn't.

i don't know what is prompting her possible change of heart -- perhaps some in-depth self-examination on her part -- but i do know that if you are inclined to consider staying with her, you yourself need to do some thinking about the circumstances under which you are willing to do so. you have already figured out that if the relationship between the two of you will be platonic only, that isn't enough. so what is enough?

of course, you could insist that she list various sets of circumstances and then you could accept or reject them, but my view is that a more productive way of approaching this is for you to think about what you want out of a relationship, and for her to think about what she wants out of a relationship, and then discuss with each other whether it is possible to find enough common ground to accommodate what each of you wants. if there is, there is; if there isn't, there isn't.

the best way to decide what you want out of a relationship, in my opinion, is for you to talk with your counselor. and then i'm wondering, if it seems that there might be some common ground between what you want and what your wife wants, whether now might be the time to consider a joint counseling session -- maybe the church's marriage counseling program, or maybe not. this would give both of you the chance to talk -- not argue -- about this in a more or less neutral environment with someone who may be able to see big-picture factors that neither of you has yet anticipated.

have you already had your counseling appt for this week?

-- susie margaret

PS -- my medical dictionaries define codependency as an unhealthy psychological dependence (here, by her) on someone (here, you) who behaves self-destructively or whose approval the codependent person needs in order to feel validated as a person, and that doesn't seem to fit the way you have described the relationship between the two of you. perhaps i've misunderstood the situation between you?

Susie-

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I have been sick with Bronchitis. Not fun.

I did have my counseling session this week and it went well. My counselor was worried that I had a place to stay when I got back, which I did. It wasn't as in depth as the last few sessions so I don't know if I got through the first "layer" of it or what. But we talked about my wife and I selling the house and seperating. The counselor asked, "If you sold the house tomorrow, would you live together?" The answer is no. As weird as it sounds, I am sort of ready to split. Not that I want us to fail. Where I live, the state requires seperation time before finalizing a divorce. She thinks and I agree that for us to see whether we want to be together is get away from each other. That way, we would be looking from the outside and not "in each other's faces" all day per se.

I know that I do not want a plantonic relationship. That would not be fun at all. There would be no passion or romance and I think that would just make the situation worse. It would just continue the cycle. So, I do know what I don't want, which is progress for me, I think.

About the codependecy, most of that dictionary is correct except the fact that I am not self-destructive. I don't feel that I am anyway. Her codependency just bends to my decisions, everything from small to large stuff. For example, if we wanted to go see a movie, it would be my choice, even if she didn't want to see it. She may try to express her opinion, but ultimately, she would go see my movie choice. She does it with the hopes of making me happy and appeasing me. Then, she would resent me later down the road for making her watch it. Take that scenario and make it a large decision, like a house or children. Now the resentment is greater. That's where is at. She doesn't resent having children at all. We are truly blessed with a healthy, happy toddler. However, she is ready to get out of this house. My previous job caused me to move 4 times in 4 years. When I got my current job, I told her to pick a big house because I was tired of moving. Well, she did. Its a great house, but its too much for us. We can handle the payments, but the upkeep with a toddler is alot of work.

So, she wants to get away from me because she doesn't trust herself to stay for the right reasons. And I think that is where the confusion lies. When she makes comments like wanting to work on it, I don't know which part of her is talking. I really think it is her codependency talking like that. But only time will tell.

The good news is that we have an interested buyer for our house. We would lose money, but I don't want to live in this house anymore. If we stayed together, we would get a new place, closer to our jobs. I am excited and terrified at the same time.

On a seperate note (sort of), my job situation has changed greatly in the last few weeks. I haven't heard anything about my temporary job yet, but the bosses have talked, which is good. Further, I got a phone call and interview lined up for another company willing to pay me more. The company is like the big dog in my world. My company is pretty big, but these guys are the big dogs. And at work, my co-workers and I are being honored for team of the year for 2010. It is a weird feeling to have some things go right and some things go so wrong.

I have a counseling session next week. The next few weeks are going to be very interesting, but I am ready for it.

hello, S --

i hope your bronchitis is gone!

good things happening, or at least having been decided --

-- both you and your wife are ready to find somewhere else to live, and you know that you don't want to live together once you sell the house
-- potential buyer is interested in house
-- you know at least two dealbreakers for any future relationship with your wife -- platonic is not good enough, and if she wants to stay with you, it has to be because she genuinely wants to, not because she is afraid of not doing whatever you want
-- your job situation is looking up

i think you are making progress.

i don't know if you will ever be able to say for 100% certain, she is staying with me because she wants to please me or she is staying with me because she truly wants to; this is something you will have to rely on your instinct to tell you, and, besides, these are not necessarily mutually incompatible. i know one thing -- if you have considerable doubt about this Q, you have to trust that she is doing it for the right reason or your uncertainty about it will poison your relationship.

let me point out a few things about your fears about why your wife may stay that indicate it is not because she wants to please you.

-- in one of your early posts, you said your wife had told you that that she was "indifferent" about whether or not the two of you stayed together and that she felt "emotionally cut off from you" (first page, sixth post). those do not sound like the statements of a woman who believes that she must bend her will to your wishes. nor does her saying that she loves you but is "undecided about being in love with you" (first page, eighth post).

-- you say that your wife is "very angry with you and very guarded on your attempts to save your marriage" (first page, tenth post). to me that reflects true skepticism on her part, not an attempt to change her own attitude merely because you want her to.

-- i also hear skepticism in her assertions that "she can't stand to be around you because of what she is going thru" and that "she wants you to do your thing and she will do hers" (second page, second post).

in other words, up until these church-related events, this issue of codependency-or-not as impetus for raising the possibility of staying together doesn't seem to me to have been present. of course, i don't know your wife as well as you do, and obviously i haven't heard all of your conversations, but her attitude until now seems not to have been "no, please don't try to make me stay" but instead "i know what i want, and it isn't you" (to frame it fairly harshly) or (a little less harshly) "i'm not sure what i want, but i'm pretty sure you're not part of it."

just because some ambivalence has now appeared on her part does not necessarily mean that it is generated by her fear of not acquiescing to your wishes; it could mean simply that during this counseling process, it has become clear to her that some ambivalence is beginning to appear about whether or not she wants to split up. in fact, it could also mean that she too has been thinking about her limits for staying in your marriage -- for one thing, that religion be a part of your lives.

in any event, this is clearly a topic that the two of you need to discuss, probably most productively with your counselors, separately and/or jointly. just arguing about her motives for feeling ambivalent won't get you anywhere, nor, in my opinion, will trying to figure out some way to "check" whether her ambivalence stems from codependency or the rise of sincere doubts in her heart.

there is no way you can know this for sure, and even if you felt you did know it for sure, there are no guarantees in life. your trying to ensure that if she stays, it would be "for the right reasons" (third page, fifth post) will be fruitless; either you trust what she says are her reasons, or you do not. you have to take her at her word; otherwise, what is the point of going thru all this counseling?

-- susie margaret

Susie-

Sorry I haven't posted sooner. Its been a long work week, along with other things.

We officially put the house up for sale this past weekend. I have a realtor who seems to know their stuff, so hopefully we will have some success. We have been very busy with cleaning and organizing so we can show it off. I never realized how much stuff we have accumulated.

I went to my counseling session this week and seemed to be moving along well. My anxiety and stress levels have dropped greatly. The only person who has caused it to come back is my wife. It came while she was yelling at me about child care arangments for this weekend. I just had to let it go. Its days like that that don't make me want to work on it. But, overall, the counselor said I'm doing well. He now wants to meet every 2 weeks because of my improvement. Some good news, I suppose.

As for my wife and I, as soon as the house is sold, we are seperating. She had mentioned that her counselor wants to start joint sessions after we sell the house and move out. I thought that was sort of weird. Why do joint session after you seperate? Why not save me the trouble of losing a house and the divorce lawyer fees? My wife went to her counselor this week too. She figured out that the comments about saving the marriage are guilt ridden, so it is her co-dependency that is speaking to me. It is not the real her. She mentioned that she told the counselor if she stayed with me, she felt like she would die. On top of that, she told me that she doesn't want to work on us because she doesn't like me as a person anymore. She tells me I'm a good man, but we just like different things in life. I have a little trouble believing her about the first part.

Your comments in your last post were not harsh. They are the truth. Some days, I want to work on it and other days I don't. On the days that I want to, I wonder how am I suppossed to emotionally fill up someone when they don't want to be filled up by you? If you make strides to improve and they don't respond, then what is the effort in trying? She is completely closed off to me and any attempts to show improvement. Its really hard and I have my up and down days. Its been a down week all around.

I think the real scary part is starting over again. Im almost 30. I know that a family nexus is not traditional anymore. There is a whole new family nexus, with step-parents, step-sibilings, and half-siblings. I just didn't want that for myself. But I think that my wife and I have aired our dirty laundry so much that there's no going back, ever.

I don't fear being alone. I fear being forgotten.

hello, S --

it sounds like you've been working really hard at evaluating the amt of effort that staying together would entail. this is a good thing. when you make a final decision, you will have considered as many factors as possible, which will help you find peace in facing whatever is to come -- together or apart.

about the joint sessions -- i think they are not so useless as you imagine. for one thing, many couples go thru joint counseling so that they can learn to work together -- even if divorced -- with respect to child custody or visitation arrangements. it may also help, i am sure, in reducing the day-to-day rancor between the two partners. and, finally, it can help the partners recognize that their marriage wasn't all bad.

i know that you and your wife must have had a time together that was truly rewarding for both of you; it is important to recognize and acknowledge that in order for both of you to be able to let go and move on. all of these things are just as relevant to staying together.

divorce is very hard emotionally, no matter who initiates it. i know this because i've been thru three of them myself (i'm not sure if that makes me a better or a worse correspondent for you!); dealing with the emotional carnage is extremely draining, whatever the circumstances are.

i'm not taking for granted that you will divorce; i don't know what the chances are and would be leery of predicting. but if you do divorce, you will not be "starting over" in the way i think you mean in your post. you will still have your daughter, who i am certain loves you very much. you will still have your relationships with other people. you will still have the improved coping skills you've learned while in counseling. these are no small matters.

i send you caring thoughts and hope that this next week will be better than this past one.

-- susie margaret

Susie-

Thanks for your last post. It helped put some things in perspective for me.

I am fairly satisified that the marriage is over. We barely talk to each other, unless it involves our daughter or the sale of the house. When you know one thing is over, you begin to look ahead to the future.

When looking ahead to the future, you begin to think about what will happen. How will I function as a single parent? How will I balance parenting and trying to be a social person? Will I ever find anyone again? If I do, will they accept my "baggage?" It causes pause every now and then.

But another issue still lingers with me. What if my wife changes her mind and wants to work on our marriage? What will I do then? Will I share those feelings? What if I meet someone during that seperation period and now I have to make a choice? Who would I choose?

I don't pretend to be some suave man, but I am sure that other people are faced with this decision as well. It scares me to even have to be in that situation. I fear that if I chose my wife, then nothing would change. I fear that the cycle would continue indefinitely. Also, we would have to air our dirty laundry. I don't think either one of us would like what was said. However, to heal, it would need to be said and brought to light. The lack of communication between us creates chances for other relationships to develop, which is not healthy if we want to save a marriage.

I have sort of quit on trying to make the marriage work at this point. I know that's not neccessarily the ideal situation, but my wife has no interest in communicating with me at this moment. And I don't know if that will ever change. I almost don't want it to so I don't have to be forced to make some kind of "decision" down the road. There is so much damage that it seems unrepairable.

Honestly, I'm ready for the house to be sold and for us to go our ways. I have a counseling session next week so I'll update sometime next week.

hello, S --

yes, what if? well, to clean up an old aphorism, if your dog said "meow," it would be your cat.

you can't know these things until they do or don't happen. all you can do is live each day as well as you can, making the decisions that seem to be the best ones at the time, seeing what the consequences seem to be, then moving on to the next set of decisions that you will make as best you can for the time.

concentrate on the present, S. you've got plenty to deal with there.

-- susie margaret

Susie-

Sorry I have not posted sooner, but I have had a trying week. I went to my couseling sessions last week and he brought some things to my attention. I debated whether to confront my wife about them. She pressed for it, so I confronted my wife on those things and it has cost me a great deal. My wife called me a few days after my appointment and told me she didn't want to work on our marriage anymore. She was satisfied that there was no gonig back to good. She told me that she was thinking about coming back, but I have a hard time believing that. So, I am going to be a single parent, something I have feared for a long time.

I am currently in the process of moving out of my home. I have some idea where I am going to live, but I am still working on it. People say when one door closes, another opens. Im still waiting on the other door.

It is a very numb feeling. I am extremely disinterested in other things. When people speak, then seem to get drowned out by something. I function at work, but my peers can tell something is going on. At home, I dislike being around my wife. She is a source of so many emotions inside me, good and bad. I tell myself it is for the best, but my body tells me different. Sometimes, I feel like I am going to cry, but there are no tears. I don't even like this house anymore. I put all this effort into it and now I can't wait to leave it.

I don't want either of us to be the "bad guy," but someone will be in the end. I don't know how people come back from things like this. It destroys confidence and drains the hell out of you, physically and emotionally. I just want to hide from everyone.

I don't have a session for another 2 weeks, so Ill update when I can.

hello, S --

i am so sorry you've been so unhappy this past week.

my thoughts right now are that the sooner you get out of your house and into a different living environment, the sooner you will be able to start adjusting to the reality of being a single person, or at least a separated person. if it turns out that your wife changes her mind again about wanting to stay together, well, then you can decide from that vantage point what you want to do about her decision. staying in the same house, tho, isn't giving either one of you an emotionally safe place to reflect in any sustained way, and you both need that.

if people perceive you as the "bad guy," then they do. there is nothing you can do about that; you don't have any control over it, nor does your wife. eventually others will get more of a big-picture perspective, or they won't. and i don't see that others' assigning either you or your wife the denomination of "bad guy" is even a necessity. obviously things have been bad between the two of you for some time; everyone you know is bound to be aware of that.

you say you "don't know how people come back from things like this." it is hard, i can tell you from experience, no matter who ostensibly precipitates these things. but it is possible, with time and with patience for yourself. you can do this, whatever "this" turns out to be.

you are not a bad person, S. you are a person whose marriage is in severe trouble, and you are a person who is going thru the very difficult process of sorting out what he wants from a relationship and from life itself. but these are not value judgments; they are merely facts.

i hope the next two weeks will be peaceful ones for you.

-- susie margaret

Susie-

It has been too long since I have posted, so I thought an update would be a good idea.

I am moving out this weekend. I have a place to stay and we have agreed to share custody of our daughter. The anxiety really kicked in this week when I started packing things into boxes and throwing away things I won't ever need again. I had my session a few days ago and it took away all the anxiety I had for the last few days.

While I am not pleased about moving out, it is definitely needed. We both need to figure out if we want to make this work. Recenlty, we both have our days where we talk like we are going to make it work. But we also have our days where we speak as if we are done. Some days, our thoughts mesh together. Most days, they don't. It is a very confusing feeling and I am tired of living like that. I read a lot of research about the pros and cons of seperating. In the end, it is worth the risk.

Recently, I have had my own doubts about wanting to make the relationship work. I am not sure whether I want to or not (Or maybe I am having a "dont want to work" moment). I know that if we did work on it, I would never take her for granted again. Not one day. I would allow myself to be more vulnerable and open. If I could do it all over again with what I know, I would have done it differently.

I plan to keep using this post as a way to get my thoughts out inbetween sessions. Even if the marriage doesn't work, I want to show to myself that I will be able to go on.

I will try to update after about a week of seperation and we'll see what happens next...

hello, S --

i think you are doing a wise thing by separating. this will put each of you in a different physical and therefore emotional "place" and give each of you the opportunity for reflection unhindered by the immediate presence of the other. this may sound like a superficial change, but believe me, it is more significant than you realize right now. for one thing, it validates the existence of both telephones and "dates."

please keep us posted. i know that however this all works out, you will make the right decision for yourself.

-- susie margaret

Susie-

It has been 4 days of seperation and what a difference time and distance can make. I moved out over the weekend while she was out of town at a wedding. I tried to make it uneventful for our young daughter. My wife returned to town and we spoke on the phone for 3 1/2 hours the first day I was out of the house. I have not spoken to her for that length of time in a long time.

She is scared and confused, just as I am. However, she told me that she has read several books and all the books say the same thing: you can re-kindle that love, but none of them explain how to do it, like a list. Well, she found a book that spells it out, including how people view love. After reading the books, she says that we will know the answer in 6 months or less. So, we are going to try to save our marriage.

I have not started it yet, but I look forward to it. At the same time, I feel very concerned about what's going to happen next. Now that we have decided to give a shot, how long before we have an answer? Am I going to have to try twice as hard as normal or am I going to finally know what it is to work on a relationship? I wonder if she will ever let her guard down enough to let me back into her life. She is extremely guarded and it seems like she may be unimpressed with anything I do. Will she give as much effort as me? What things will she do to work on it?

The last few days have been "I want to work on it days." Today, not so much. My wife has her days too. However, tomorrow, we decided to start over with the dating. So, I am taking her out on our 2nd "1st" date. Weird stuff. Its been so long, I don't know where to start. I guess I'll have to enlist alot of help along the way.

I have a counseling session next week. In addition we are going to possibly start joint counseling and attending a religion based marriage counseling class. So, here we go...