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jc3737 posted:
http://www.healthiertalk.com/sorry-vegetarians-4182
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Tomato05 responded:
Ah, as a meat-lover with osteoporosis it makes me happy to read things like this!!
 
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jc3737 replied to Tomato05's response:
I posted that for debate not because I beleive it.I try to keep a balanced approach since this is a debate forum.I believe based on the totality of the evidence I have seen that a healthy vegan diet is the best bet for bone health.

What about the rural Chinese who have strong bones and eat a diet of rice and vegatables and some cultures that eat lots of dairy have poor bone health.
 
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Tomato05 replied to jc3737's response:
Maybe the rural Chinese get lots of weight-bearing exercise daily through their various activities.

The traditional Chinese diet doesn't omit meat - they just eat little of it (because they couldn't afford it); some studies say it comprises 20% of their diet.
 
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jc3737 replied to Tomato05's response:
The rural Chinese don't get meat in their diet,at least not on most regular days....maybe at special occasions but rarely. Weight bearing exercise may help some with bone health but its not really the name of the game.I have known many athletes who weight train until their bones weaken too much to take the strain.Diet is the main factor for bone health,just as it is for weight loss and health.

Exercise is important and should not be overlooked but it is not nearly as important as diet.
 
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jc3737 replied to jc3737's response:
I know that some vegans also get osteoporosis but that may be becasue they don't get enough of the calcium rich greens and even then they probably have a lower rate of osteoporosis than meat eaters.
 
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Tomato05 replied to jc3737's response:
Not forgetting the importance of Vit, D - it is now seen as being as essential as calcium for bones.

I suppose the rural Chinese spend a lot of time in the sun too!

Here is a link to a study that points out that the diet varies greatly in different parts of rural China. The high-dairy and high-protein eaters were not less healthy than those who did not eat like that.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/06/20/a-closer-look-at-the-china-study-dairy-and-disease/
 
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jc3737 replied to Tomato05's response:
I am aware of Denise Minger's criticisms of the China study.I don't know what to make of it short of traveling to the rural areas of China and seeing for myself.
 
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DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
I believe I read that high bone density does not necessarily mean strong bones. The bones could be dense and brittle.

While it is certainly true that rhinos, hippos and elephants by definition get a lot of weight bearing exercise, it is also true that they are browsers and grazers. So if protein is important to bone health they must be getting adequate amounts from herbage which is all they eat.

It is not true that plant protein is incomplete. 'That has been disproved a while ago. Now, no one says that it is necessary to combine beans and grains, for example, although one would get plenty of complete protein if one did so.

If there is a high rate of osteoporosis and fractures among those eating the SAD (and this is what most people eat), then you might be leary of a very high protein diet. If the rate of osteoporosis and fractures is lower in high meat eaters then you would have an argument in favor of a high animal protein diet. Like the markers for heart disease, the bottom line is--did you get a heart attack, not risk factors. So one way or the other, the true test is not the amount of calcium excretion in a relatively short lived experiment but over several years, do meat and milk eaters have more fractures and osteoporosis or do people eating a healthful vegan diet have more fractures and osteoporosis? I am not talking about a "vegan" on a bad diet of processed foods and fats and oils and low fruit and vegetable intake. Nor a vegetarian who eats large quantities of dairy and eggs.

(For myself, I always keep canned wild sockeye salmon in the house and eat a couple of ounces a couple of times a week. On the rare occasion I eat out I might order a salad with a piece of grilled chicken on it.)

Dolores
 
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Tomato05 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
That's true, Dolores, that high bone density does not always equal strong bones. That's one of the criticisms of Fosamax, which is widely used to treat osteoporosis.

While I was on Fosamax, I still got a fracture about annually Once I stopped it (and went onto Strontium) my fractures stopped happening.

I don't think there have been many studies on animals and osteoporosis - I know they have detected osteopenia in horses. Maybe nobody is brave enough to take on a rhino or hippo, ha ha.

There are so many factors involved in osteoporosis, from dietary to hormonal to exercise - it's quite complex. I hope lots of research is being done continually.
 
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EngineerGuy replied to Tomato05's response:
Hi Tomato05,

Sorry to hear of your fractures, but glad it appears to have stopped.

At age 60, DXA showed my hips at the bottom of osteopenia, almost to osteoporosis. My spine was at the top of osteopenia, almost normal. Hurray!!

That was after I ran 4 miles a day, 7x each week, for 2 years, only missing 1 or 2 days a month. Kind of disheartening.

I can only attribute it to a vitamin D deficiency (I tested 16 at age 60, my first test ever.) Also, I'd had a high salt intake, withouot realizing it, for about 28 years. Also, I was a shy un-athletic kid, so I probably didn't build the maximum bone density that many people have, at 25.

A couple points. Sodium in the diet, is a bad player for calcium loss(1). It's really easy to get a high sodium intake, with processed foods. Check the food label. For a 200 calorie serving, allow max 200 mg sodium. For 100 calories, 100 mg sodium. 1 to 1. The way, a 2000 calorie diet gets max 2000 mg sodium. That's still a bit high, but hopefully there are lots of foods without a label, to lower the average sodium intake.

Vitamin A supplements, also suck calcium out of the bones, and studies do show a correlation of A supplements and hip fractures(2). If you would like references, there is a virtual treasure trove in fuhrman's new book Super Immunity, just published.

(1) Teucher B, Sodium and bone health; impace of moderately high and low sodium intakes on calcium metabolism in postmenopausal women. J Bone Min Res 2008; 23(9): 1477-85. Heaney RP Role of dietary sodium in osteoporosis. J Am Coll Nutr 2006; 25(3 Suppl):271S-276S.

(2) Whiting SJ, Excess Retinol intake may explain the high incidence of osteoporosis in northern Europe. Nutr Rev 1999; 57(6):192-95.

Astronauts in space, lose 1 to 2% of their entire bone density, each month. This is due to high sodium diet, and microgravity.

Best regards, EngineerGuy
 
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Tomato05 replied to EngineerGuy's response:
Thanks EngineerGuy, for the reminder about sodium/osteoporosis.

My sodium intake is definitely too high (more than 2000mg, that's for sure). If one exercises a lot, say cardio (that leaves one sweating) up to 6 times a week, how many extra mg of sodium can one allow for, do you think?

Were you taking in enough calcium pre-diagnosis?

Remember that male hormones also play a big role in male osteoporosis; decreased sex hormones in men mean lower estrogen for men, with resultant lower bone protection.

Running is great for so many reasons and health benefits, but I am not sure about its muscle building role. For prevention (and management) of osteoporosis nothing beats weight training in the exercise department, in my opinion. I have felt and seen the positive effects thereof myself.
 
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jc3737 replied to Tomato05's response:
I thought lower estrogen in men was a good thing since higher estrogen levels are correlated with some cancers such as prostate.Am I wrong about this?

I also thought that flax and plant based foods like beans were phytoestrogens which lowered estrogen levels and that was part of the reason plant based foods fought cancer.Am I wrong?
 
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Tomato05 replied to jc3737's response:
I don't know - maybe the difference lies in being low and being deficient in estrogen.

Estrogen has a definite bone-protecting effect. While high estrogen in men is definitely something to avoid, too low can also not be good.

Here's an article about the link between low estrogen and low Bone Mineral Density in men:

http://www.hcplive.com/publications/internal-medicine-world-report/2007/2007-10/2007-10_21
 
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jc3737 replied to Tomato05's response:
Good article tomato05.I guess it takes a balance,neither too much nor too little,


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