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    from another site
    jc3737 posted:
    This is a discussion from another site.

    "The Ornish diet goes like this:
    [blockquote>The following foods can be eaten whenever you are hungry, until you are full:
    • Beans and legumes
    • Fruits -- anything from apples to watermelon, from raspberries to pineapples
    • Grains
    • Vegetables
    These foods should be eaten in moderation:
    • Nonfat dairy products -- skim milk, nonfat yogurt, nonfat cheeses, nonfat sour cream, and egg whites
    • Nonfat or very low-fat commercially available products --from Life Choice frozen dinners to Haagen-Dazs frozen yogurt bars and Entenmann's fat-free desserts (but if sugar is among the first few ingredients listed, put it back on the shelf)
    These foods should be avoided:
    • Meat of all kinds -- red and white, fish and fowl (if we can't give up meat, we should at least eat as little as possible)
    • Oils and oil-containing products, such as margarine and most salad dressings
    • Avocados
    • Olives
    • Nuts and seeds
    • Dairy products (other than the nonfat ones above)
    • Sugar and simple sugar derivatives -- honey, molasses, corn syrup, and high-fructose syrup
    • Alcohol
    • Anything commercially prepared that has more than two grams of fat per serving
    [/blockquote>Beans increase glucose and insulin at about a half of Wheat and most sugars, a better alternative to the former. Veggies I agree with, most are often good to eat due to low spikes in insulin and glucose. Grains are too glycemic, raising glucose and insulin too high too fast much like sugar - don't need those in most diets, unless there is literally nothing else to eat. Grains belong at the tip of the hypothetical pyramid as a very low consumption food, maybe once a week or if the body requires carbs in times of physical exertion. I don't see how grains are heart-healthy at all, except in tiny quantities for slight spikes in insulin and glucose.
    Non-fat foods, that's absurd. Fats don't raise insulin or glucose levels. We require healthy fats from pasture fed animals that have a balanced Omega content. Grain fed commercial animals have high Omega-6 content that are in most supermarkets nowadays. Not to mention the chemical baths most animals are subjected to in commercial operations. That whole sustainability argument rears its head, can't have pasture fed animals runnin' around eatin' all the grass, bugs, and worms now, can we? Most seed, grain, and vegetable oils are high in Omega-6 content, failing to provide the right balance in fats. Can't agree that most of those types of oils are healthy. Perhaps a few like coconut. Best to stay away from high glycemic foods and saturated fats and fats in general however, the high glycemic foods tend to increase blood fats in circulation. Meats of all kinds that aren't polluted or chemically deranged are usually rare finds and costlier, but much healthier alternatives to many of Dean Ornish's recommendations IMO. I feel TONs better a lot longer when I eat a high fat non-GMO non-garbage-fed fish than when I consume addictive grains and sugars.
    I have a hard time believing that Jobs was following the Ornish diet.
    DoloresTeresa responded:
    If you want to eat fat from animals you have to separate the meat from the fat. Because meat raises insulin more than most carbs. Fat will raise insulin because it prevents sugar in the blood from entering the cells and thus the pancreas pours out more and more insulin because the sugar remains in the blood. Fat blocks the insulin from doing its job. It can make you insulin resistant.

    I don't know if Jobs was following an Ornish diet which, because of the addition of dairy and eggs would not be vegan (which he claimed he was). I think others have improved on Ornish. Esselstyn, McDougall, Fuhrman would not recommend frozen yogurt or processed low fat foods.

    McDougall's recent newsletter can be found on his website. He talks about Mr. Jobs, his diet and pancreatic cancer.

    If there is anyone who lives forever, let me know. No diet in the world no matter how healthful will prevent death--only postpone it maybe.

    I also have many questions about the use of B12 which vegans need. Dr. Mcdougall says to take 5 mcgs per day. You simply cannot buy it in that amount. It usually comes in units over 500 mcgs. It wonders me if people are taking much too much B12 which everyone says is harmless. I have read that B12 is responsible for cell growth. Could those large doses also cause growth of cancer cells?

    jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    Its possible that high levels of B-12 supplementation could casue problems.After EGs recommendation I switched to Fuhrmans multi vit/mineral supplement with no vit A or iron and lower levels of other vitamins(based on the latest research).He keeps up with the research and makes changes in his supplements accordingly.
    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    McDougall recommends 5 mcg of B 12 per day. You simply cannot buy a 5 mcg pill of B12. I heard that whole foods has a 40 mcg sublingual which I might try if I ever find a whole foods. There are none near me. For now, contrary to what the plant based gurus tell us, no more than once a week I throw a can of rinsed off minced clams into a vat of soup which might last two or three days or more (I would guess it contains about 15 mcg worth of B12 and is about 2.5 ounces of rinsed clams.) and eat about 6 ounces of canned wild caught sockeye salmon spread out over the week which is about 9.6 mcg of B 12. That makes a little less than 9 ounces of animal protein per week. Although McDougall recommends 5mcg per day, he also says that 2.5 should be enough (and maybe even a little less.) I therefore think that my B12 intake is adequate. Whether I am harming myself by eating 9 ounces of fish per week I do not know. I do know that I read that the very healthy Okinawans consume around an average of an ounce of fish per day. And Campbell has a footnote in his books connected with one of his charts which seems to show that either fish is excluded from his calculation of animal protein or fish does not cause the problems of other animal protein. I have not been able to get an explanation of this. So I believe I am eating an amount consistent with that of traditional Asian diets. I could not recommend this to anyone else because I have not had any blood test to see what my blood lipids are.

    I would also like to add that many people have stopped eating beef and switched to chicken and turkey. These have a whole lot less B12 than beef (except for the giblets which have lots of B12). You would have to eat 21 ounces of chicken or turkey a day if you want to get 2.5 mcg of B12. Less if you are consuming some dairy.


    jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    I don't know but I would guess your near vegan diet would take care of any B-12 problems and is likley healthier than a pure vegan diet.I have red meat once per week because my last blood test showed I was anemic.My next blood test is a month away so I'll see what happens.

    On the other hand look at how healthy these guys look.... Dr Fuhrman,Dr Campbell, Dr McDougall,Dr Essee and son Rip..all are the picture of health for their respective ages.And Rip was raised from birth a vegan(I think).

    I wish they were more open to questions and debate.Maybe we could reslove some of these questions.Coming out of the 60s I am still today suspicious of those who do not embrase questions and debate.Look what happened when Heretic disagreed with them.And anyone who even uses the term "troll" for those who disagree or "stirs up trouble" reminds me of the Senator Joe McCarthy era of the 1950s.

    That gives me pause in accepting everything they say.
    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    I do find it odd when McDougallers insist on the party line because McDougall himself has said a few times that he reserves the right to change his opinion depending on the latest scientific research.

    For myself, sometimes I just have a gut feeling about something no matter what the experts say. When my mother had her two children they kept women in the hospital 10 days to 2 weeks. I would have gone bonkers. When I was having babies they kept women in the hospital 3 to 5 days. With my third child, I realized they were doing nothing for me in the hospital and after sixteen hours I insisted on going home. My doctor had a fit and said I would probably be killing my baby and myself. I was adamant and he made me sign a paper saying I absolved the hospital and doctors of any responsibility should something go wrong. Of course I recovered better and faster. When my daughters had their babies it would have required an act of congress to allow them to stay in the hospital for more than a day.

    I also refused hormone replacement therapy despite the insistence of my doctor. We all know what happened there. Sometimes the trouble makers get it right.


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