Diet Debate
We debate the various types of diets.
PSA test
jc3737 posted:
In todays newspaper....an article about how PSA testing doe not save lives so is the test totally junk and useless?
Maybe not totally worthless...
"Increasing plant foods is a good idea since there are areas of the world where prostate cancer is almost non-existent and those are areas where the diet is a near vegan diet.
The PSA test does not save lives and it causes too much unnecessary treatment,but it has been shown to be a good indicator of the progression of prostate cancer once it is diagnosed.Certain higher levels of PSA are statistically correlated to more serious cancers.I don't remember the exact number (somewhere in the 20-40 range)but a high PSA reading is very strongly correlated to cancer that has spread beyond the prostate.(strongly correlated even considering the false readings due to severe inflammation or infection)
There are some rare cases where infection and even severe inflammation can also cause these higher PSA levels but it is very rare and usually not sustained long term,and not enough to affect the statistical correlation of high PSA and deadly cancer)
So is the PAS a junk test?Well yes and no.It doesn't save lives overall but very high levels are so strongly correlated with deadly prostate cancer that it does have some uses,especially in determining when treatment may be appropriate.But what type of treatment is another matter to consider.Personally I would prefer some type of alternative treatment,herbs,diet,ozone,etc,and NOT chemo or radiation."
Maybe not totally worthless...
"Increasing plant foods is a good idea since there are areas of the world where prostate cancer is almost non-existent and those are areas where the diet is a near vegan diet.
The PSA test does not save lives and it causes too much unnecessary treatment,but it has been shown to be a good indicator of the progression of prostate cancer once it is diagnosed.Certain higher levels of PSA are statistically correlated to more serious cancers.I don't remember the exact number (somewhere in the 20-40 range)but a high PSA reading is very strongly correlated to cancer that has spread beyond the prostate.(strongly correlated even considering the false readings due to severe inflammation or infection)
There are some rare cases where infection and even severe inflammation can also cause these higher PSA levels but it is very rare and usually not sustained long term,and not enough to affect the statistical correlation of high PSA and deadly cancer)
So is the PAS a junk test?Well yes and no.It doesn't save lives overall but very high levels are so strongly correlated with deadly prostate cancer that it does have some uses,especially in determining when treatment may be appropriate.But what type of treatment is another matter to consider.Personally I would prefer some type of alternative treatment,herbs,diet,ozone,etc,and NOT chemo or radiation."
6 Replies |Watch This Discussion | Report This| Share this:PSA testIn todays newspaper....an article about how PSA testing doe not save lives so is the test totally junk and useless?<br /> <br />Maybe not totally worthless...<br /> <br />"Increasing plant foods is a good idea since there are areas of the world where prostate cancer is almost non-existent and those are areas where the diet is a near vegan diet.<br /><br />The PSA test does not save lives and it causes too much unnecessary treatment,but it has been shown to be a good indicator of the progression of prostate cancer once it is diagnosed.Certain higher levels of PSA are statistically correlated to more serious cancers.I don't remember the exact number (somewhere in the 20-40 range)but a high PSA reading is very strongly correlated to cancer that has spread beyond the prostate.(strongly correlated even considering the false readings due to severe inflammation or infection)<br /><br />There are some rare cases where infection and even severe inflammation can also cause these higher PSA levels but it is very rare and usually not sustained long term,and not enough to affect the statistical correlation of high PSA and deadly cancer)<br /><br />So is the PAS a junk test?Well yes and no.It doesn't save lives overall but very high levels are so strongly correlated with deadly prostate cancer that it does have some uses,especially in determining when treatment may be appropriate.But what type of treatment is another matter to consider.Personally I would prefer some type of alternative treatment,herbs,diet,ozone,etc,and NOT chemo or radiation."
Heretk responded:
Re: " "Increasing plant foods is a good idea since there are areas of the world where prostate cancer is almost non-existent and those are areas where the diet is a near vegan diet."
Nonsense logic. There are areas without satellite dishes with no prostate disease, do satellite dishes cause prostate?"Near vegan" is like near pregnant. There are some nations and countries that eat mostly plant based diet but a vast majority are poor and not particularly long lived or healthy. The longest lived nations are Swiss, Japanese, French etc. They are not vegetarians, not even close. (for example Japanese are the highest fish consumers in the world).
Let us look at the vegetarian-propagating cultures like Hindu or Buddhist. India: 13% diabetics in the cities (same as the USA) , 4% in the rural areas.India has more heart attacks patients in the absolute numbers then the rest of the world! (based on a Times of India article, quoting from memory)
Hong Kong: about 20% diabetics, as far as I remember - the highest in the world. Singapore also one of the highest rate of diabetes. Higher than the USA with their SAD and processed food obsession.
Re: statistical correlation of high PSA and deadly cancer, and the treatment of PSA not saving lives paradox
This may be an indication that we are dealing with a false correlation. That is there may be a yet unmentioned true primary factor causing all of the following symptoms: high PSA, inflammation and cancers elsewhere in the body. I strongly suspect that the primary factor is:
excessive carbohydrate consumption
Stan (Heretic)
Nonsense logic. There are areas without satellite dishes with no prostate disease, do satellite dishes cause prostate?"Near vegan" is like near pregnant. There are some nations and countries that eat mostly plant based diet but a vast majority are poor and not particularly long lived or healthy. The longest lived nations are Swiss, Japanese, French etc. They are not vegetarians, not even close. (for example Japanese are the highest fish consumers in the world).
Let us look at the vegetarian-propagating cultures like Hindu or Buddhist. India: 13% diabetics in the cities (same as the USA) , 4% in the rural areas.India has more heart attacks patients in the absolute numbers then the rest of the world! (based on a Times of India article, quoting from memory)
Hong Kong: about 20% diabetics, as far as I remember - the highest in the world. Singapore also one of the highest rate of diabetes. Higher than the USA with their SAD and processed food obsession.
Re: statistical correlation of high PSA and deadly cancer, and the treatment of PSA not saving lives paradox
This may be an indication that we are dealing with a false correlation. That is there may be a yet unmentioned true primary factor causing all of the following symptoms: high PSA, inflammation and cancers elsewhere in the body. I strongly suspect that the primary factor is:
excessive carbohydrate consumption
Stan (Heretic)
Report This| Share this:PSA testRe: <i>" "Increasing plant foods is a good idea since there are areas of the world where prostate cancer is almost non-existent and those are areas where the diet is a near vegan diet."</i><br /><i><br /></i><br />Nonsense logic. There are areas without satellite dishes with no prostate disease, do satellite dishes cause prostate?"Near vegan" is like near pregnant. There are some nations and countries that eat mostly plant based diet but a vast majority are poor and not particularly long lived or healthy. The longest lived nations are Swiss, Japanese, French etc. They are not vegetarians, not even close. (for example Japanese are the highest fish consumers in the world).<br />Let us look at the vegetarian-propagating cultures like Hindu or Buddhist. India: 13% diabetics in the cities (same as the USA) , 4% in the rural areas.India has more heart attacks patients in the absolute numbers then the rest of the world! (based on a Times of India article, quoting from memory) <br />Hong Kong: about 20% diabetics, as far as I remember - the highest in the world. Singapore also one of the highest rate of diabetes. Higher than the USA with their SAD and processed food obsession. <br />Re: statistical correlation of high PSA and deadly cancer, and the treatment of PSA not saving lives paradox<br />This may be an indication that we are dealing with a false correlation. That is there may be a yet unmentioned true primary factor causing all of the following symptoms: high PSA, inflammation and cancers elsewhere in the body. I strongly suspect that the primary factor is:<br /> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://stan-heretic.blogspot.com/2011/12/more-starch-more-breast-cancer.html">excessive carbohydrate consumption</a> <br />Stan (Heretic)
DoloresTeresa replied to Heretk's response:
H, you're being naughty again. You know the non meat eating Indians drink milk and cook with ghee so I would not be surprised that they have more heart attacks and diabetes.
If a study were done that discovered that satellite dishes caused prostate cancer then your analogy actually would be valid. You could also say that countries with fewer classical ballet dancers have less prostate cancer so jetes and ronde de jombes cause cancer. Looking for food correlations with cancer is much more reasonable because everybody eats but not everybody wears a tutu.
When you say excessive carbohydrate consumption causes prostate cancer you have to identify exactly what carbs you are talking about. Pure sugar like soda pop and candy canes? French fries? HFCS? Mashed potatoes with lots of bacon bits and butter? Quantities which cause a large gain in weight?
Or whole foods like rice which is eaten in great quantity in Asia. Do they have an unusually large number of people with prostate cancer?
Dolores
If a study were done that discovered that satellite dishes caused prostate cancer then your analogy actually would be valid. You could also say that countries with fewer classical ballet dancers have less prostate cancer so jetes and ronde de jombes cause cancer. Looking for food correlations with cancer is much more reasonable because everybody eats but not everybody wears a tutu.
When you say excessive carbohydrate consumption causes prostate cancer you have to identify exactly what carbs you are talking about. Pure sugar like soda pop and candy canes? French fries? HFCS? Mashed potatoes with lots of bacon bits and butter? Quantities which cause a large gain in weight?
Or whole foods like rice which is eaten in great quantity in Asia. Do they have an unusually large number of people with prostate cancer?
Dolores
Report This| Share this:PSA testH, you're being naughty again. You know the non meat eating Indians drink milk and cook with ghee so I would not be surprised that they have more heart attacks and diabetes. <br /><br />If a study were done that discovered that satellite dishes caused prostate cancer then your analogy actually would be valid. You could also say that countries with fewer classical ballet dancers have less prostate cancer so jetes and ronde de jombes cause cancer. Looking for food correlations with cancer is much more reasonable because everybody eats but not everybody wears a tutu.<br /><br />When you say excessive carbohydrate consumption causes prostate cancer you have to identify exactly what carbs you are talking about. Pure sugar like soda pop and candy canes? French fries? HFCS? Mashed potatoes with lots of bacon bits and butter? Quantities which cause a large gain in weight?<br /><br />Or whole foods like rice which is eaten in great quantity in Asia. Do they have an unusually large number of people with prostate cancer?<br /><br />Dolores
jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
I agree with Dolores,,,,studies indiciting carbs almost always(if not always)use a sugary solution,white processed flour,or HFCS.Its sort of like trashing all fat when trans fat may be the real problem
Heretic,PSA paradox...I don't see it.I just don't think there is any effective treatment for the more serious prostate cancers.So detecting it may be of no value...and would not save lives....but very elevated PSA is VERY strongly correlated to prostate cancer...if your PSA is above 20 95% of the time you have prosate cancer and if PSA is over 40 the chances are great you have deadly prostate cancer.So its not a junk test at higher PSA levels,but why do a test for cancer when there is really no effective treatment other than treatmnet that will extend life for a few months more.
And the non deadly type of prostate cancer may take 30 yrs to become deadly and the person is usually gone by some other illness.
Thats why treated vs non treated prostate cancer shows little difference in longevity.(from Harvard Mens Health Watch),although treatmnet does show some minor extention of life.
Heretic,PSA paradox...I don't see it.I just don't think there is any effective treatment for the more serious prostate cancers.So detecting it may be of no value...and would not save lives....but very elevated PSA is VERY strongly correlated to prostate cancer...if your PSA is above 20 95% of the time you have prosate cancer and if PSA is over 40 the chances are great you have deadly prostate cancer.So its not a junk test at higher PSA levels,but why do a test for cancer when there is really no effective treatment other than treatmnet that will extend life for a few months more.
And the non deadly type of prostate cancer may take 30 yrs to become deadly and the person is usually gone by some other illness.
Thats why treated vs non treated prostate cancer shows little difference in longevity.(from Harvard Mens Health Watch),although treatmnet does show some minor extention of life.
Report This| Share this:PSA testI agree with Dolores,,,,studies indiciting carbs almost always(if not always)use a sugary solution,white processed flour,or HFCS.Its sort of like trashing all fat when trans fat may be the real problem<br /> <br />Heretic,PSA paradox...I don't see it.I just don't think there is any effective treatment for the more serious prostate cancers.So detecting it may be of no value...and would not save lives....but very elevated PSA is VERY strongly correlated to prostate cancer...if your PSA is above 20 95% of the time you have prosate cancer and if PSA is over 40 the chances are great you have deadly prostate cancer.So its not a junk test at higher PSA levels,but why do a test for cancer when there is really no effective treatment other than treatmnet that will extend life for a few months more.<br /> <br />And the non deadly type of prostate cancer may take 30 yrs to become deadly and the person is usually gone by some other illness.<br /> <br />Thats why treated vs non treated prostate cancer shows little difference in longevity.(from Harvard Mens Health Watch),although treatmnet does show some minor extention of life.
Heretk replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
Re: ...non meat eating Indians drink milk and cook with ghee so I would not be surprised that they have more heart attacks and diabetes.
No, it cannot be milk or ghee. Malhotra's study (Brit. Heart J. 1967;29:895-905., and Am J Clin Nutr 1967; 20: 462-474) showed that the Indian states who consumed more ghee and dairy had the least heart disease.
No, it cannot be milk or ghee. Malhotra's study (Brit. Heart J. 1967;29:895-905., and Am J Clin Nutr 1967; 20: 462-474) showed that the Indian states who consumed more ghee and dairy had the least heart disease.
Report This| Share this:PSA testRe: <i>...non meat eating Indians drink milk and cook with ghee so I would not be surprised that they have more heart attacks and diabetes.</i> <br /><br /><br />No, it cannot be milk or ghee. Malhotra's study (Brit. Heart J. 1967;29:895-905., and Am J Clin Nutr 1967; 20: 462-474) showed that the Indian states who consumed more ghee and dairy had the least heart disease.<br /><br />
Re: I agree with Dolores,,,,studies indiciting carbs almost always(if not always)use a sugary solution,white processed flour,or HFCS.Its sort of like trashing all fat when trans fat may be the real problem.
With PSA, prostate it is not clear. Studies indicting carbohydrates in cancer used mostly breast cancer, not prostate cancer. It may have a different contributing or triggering factor. Nevertheless, the studies I quoted implicated starch in particular, not sugar. So it is more precise than stating that all junk food caorrelates, only that which contains starch! Is it really the wheat? I think so - I think starch in those studies was a proxy for wheat, but that would be only a speculation.
Regarding a diet as a treatment? I am not sure in a scientific sense, how effective a diet would be once a cancer is diagnosed.
Personally I prefer to eat like a hunter gatherer and be as physically robust as possible since there is no downside to it, rather than be a vegan hothouse flower trading one health weakness for another...
With PSA, prostate it is not clear. Studies indicting carbohydrates in cancer used mostly breast cancer, not prostate cancer. It may have a different contributing or triggering factor. Nevertheless, the studies I quoted implicated starch in particular, not sugar. So it is more precise than stating that all junk food caorrelates, only that which contains starch! Is it really the wheat? I think so - I think starch in those studies was a proxy for wheat, but that would be only a speculation.
Regarding a diet as a treatment? I am not sure in a scientific sense, how effective a diet would be once a cancer is diagnosed.
Personally I prefer to eat like a hunter gatherer and be as physically robust as possible since there is no downside to it, rather than be a vegan hothouse flower trading one health weakness for another...
Report This| Share this:PSA testRe: <i>I agree with Dolores,,,,studies indiciting carbs almost always(if not always)use a sugary solution,white processed flour,or HFCS.Its sort of like trashing all fat when trans fat may be the real problem.</i><br /><i><br /></i><br />With PSA, prostate it is not clear. Studies indicting carbohydrates in cancer used mostly breast cancer, not prostate cancer. It may have a different contributing or triggering factor. Nevertheless, the studies I <a rel="nofollow" href="http://stan-heretic.blogspot.com/2011/12/more-starch-more-breast-cancer.html">quoted</a> implicated starch in particular, not sugar. So it is more precise than stating that all junk food caorrelates, only that which contains starch! Is it really the wheat? I think so - I think starch in those studies was a proxy for wheat, but that would be only a speculation. <br /><br /><br />Regarding a diet as a treatment? I am not sure in a scientific sense, how effective a diet would be once a cancer is diagnosed.<br /><br /><br /> Personally I prefer to eat like a hunter gatherer and be as physically robust as possible since there is no downside to it, rather than be a vegan hothouse flower trading one health weakness for another... <br /><br /><br /><br />
DoloresTeresa replied to Heretk's response:
H, it seems like you do a lot more hunting than gathering.
Dolores
P.S. I'm an old fashioned girl. I love to be thought of as a hot house flower.
Dolores
P.S. I'm an old fashioned girl. I love to be thought of as a hot house flower.
Report This| Share this:PSA testH, it seems like you do a lot more hunting than gathering. <br /><br />Dolores<br />P.S. I'm an old fashioned girl. I love to be thought of as a hot house flower.
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