Diet Debate

If you remember, there is a graph somewhere in The China Study which shows that graphing fat with respect to heart disease (or cancer, I can't remember which), shows no correlation. He has a graph using meat consumption which is practically a straight line. Is Campbell saying eating fats or oils does not show a correlation with heart disease so go ahead and eat fats. If someone has a copy of his study on hand will you look it up and try to find that graph?

Having worked as an analytical chemist I am skeptical of saying "there is no evidence to suggest ----take your pick.

Our lab did a test once to determine the amount of ozone in gigantic room where space vehicles were photographed. They used arc photography which apparently generated ozone. People were passing out in the room during the photography process. The company would provide better ventilation if we could show there was ozone in the room. In the first place we were using old equipment and in the second, we did the test in the room when no one was photographing anything. We did not find ozone. I quit soon after but while I was still there, no new ventilation system was installed and people continued to pass out on occasion.

I think good evidence for the low fat argument is the very excellent results that pritikin, esselstyn, McDougall et al get with their diets. I do know that Atkins ultimately did not have good results lowering blood sugars of some of his diabetic patients but whether that was because of the meat or fat can't be said definitely.

Dolores

I have yet to see where Heretic addressed the Atkins diet problems you mention with diabetes...it works for a while and then blood sugar rises.

I think Fuhrman is suggesting that it's all the beneficial nutrients in the plant foods that are responsible for the excellentt results Pritikin,Esselstyn,and McDougall diets show....and is totally unrelated to dietary fat.In fact he says his patients who get too little fat have a number of problems....as I listed in a recent post.

Keep in mind Dr Davis is probably preparing an essay as to why the results of these diets and Esseys study is totally bogus.Should be interesting.

This fat issue is a major difference between the Fuhrman and McDougall camps and needs to be resolved between the two groups.Another issue is Fuhrman saying being near vegan(some meat)is just as good as being total vegan and solves the B-12 and low iron issue.

But,we have to consider the many people on the low fat version of a plant based diet(McDougall) appear to do very well on the low fat diet.I would ask Fuhrman how he accounts for this if low fat causes problems and is not the key to the success of McDougall's group.

Esseys son Rip looks healthy as does TC Campbell,Essey,McDougall,and Jeff N....so it appears that the parents and kids raised on the low fat McDougall diet do just fine.

But then if you go to a Paleo board or WAPF board you will see and hear the exact same claims.

By the way how did you do on qual and quan?I made a C in both and was glad to get it.

Hi jc,

A couple thoughts:

Re: "Another issue is Fuhrman saying being near vegan(some meat)is just as good as being total vegan and solves the B-12 and low iron issue."

Fuhrman believes, for most people, the ideal diet would be vegan, but says that the data is lacking to prove it. Yes, meat does provide B12 for most people. But some people need B12 injections, even on a high meat diet. Meat is not necessary for most people to get adequate iron, but some people even on a high meat diet, need iron supplements. This is simple individual variation.

Re: "But,we have to consider the many people on the low fat version of a plant based diet(McDougall) appear to do very well on the low fat diet."
Quite true. However, Fuhrman believes he has had many patients on the low fat diet, come to him with essential tremor, as they become elderly. He feels this is due to inadequate fat.

Fuhrman only advocates higher fat intake for people at a very lean weight. People with 1/2 inch belly fat, are actually at the beginning of the calorie restriction regime. In this regime, a wide range of ratios of carbs, fat and protein, do not affect the life extension effect. If someone is not so lean, they may have to be very low fat.

Re: "But then if you go to a Paleo board or WAPF board you will see and hear the exact same claims."

That's the difference between claims and theories, versus demonstrated results. Claims and demonstrated results are not equal. If they are, then we simply may believe what we wish, rather than pay attention to science.

Best regards, EngineerGuy

"Quite true. However, Fuhrman believes he has had many patients on the low fat diet, come to him with essential tremor, as they become elderly. He feels this is due to inadequate fat."

Not only tremors....I listed a number of other problems Fuhrman found from low fat in a recent post.

"That's the difference between claims and theories, versus demonstrated results. Claims and demonstrated results are not equal. If they are, then we simply may believe what we wish, rather than pay attention to science"

I only pay attention to demonstrated results and strong scientific studies but its amazing how even this can vary....with each side showing strong science and demonstrated results.

However the top level authorities don't see the results and science as strong enough (on either side) to consider it verifiable science just yet.That may change as the popularity of "forks Over Knives" frocuses more and more people on vegan diets and some large long term studies begin.Then and only then can it hope to move to demonstrated results and strong science.

Whether Fuhrman is correct or not, the fact remains that he recommends no more than an ounce of nuts or seApparenty eds for some--most likely the overweight. Not a whole lot--about the same amount as in a tablespoon and a half of olive oil and it comes in the original package. This puzzles me somewhat because there is fat in most vegetables. So Fuhrman is saying we need more. Apparently Esselstyn's patients do not seem to need the fat that Fuhrman's patients need.

Dolores

EG, "believes" doesn't count as much as a study. I think I wrote before that my grandfather and my mother both had a tremor. You could see it in their handwriting. Neither one was a low fat eater. I agree with you --this is a case of claims and demonstrated results not being equal.

I do tend to agree with Fuhrman not being worried about a little bit of meat (or fish). Maybe the problem is when fuhrman says a little bit it might give people the license to belly up at a table at some steakhouse. We have been told for years about the diets of the Tarahumara and others who eat a plant based diet and who have no heart disease. As a matter of fact all these traditional plant eating groups do eat trapped and hunted meat and some might raise their own meat--like guinea pigs. Yuk. The amount may be very small but it isn't zero.

Dolores

Various diet camps tend to take things to the extreme and eliminate all animal products but as you point out the long lived groups do eat some meat....just not very much.

Still,I have to say Fuhrman comes closest to being correct about diet as anyone i have come across....but I'm still not going to stop asking questions,and will never fall into the "true bleiever"camp where i accept everything he says and don't bring up contrary evidence.

Re: "I think good evidence for the low fat argument is the very excellent results that pritikin, esselstyn, McDougall et al get with their diets. I do know that Atkins ultimately did not have good results lowering blood sugars of some of his diabetic patients but whether that was because of the meat or fat can't be said definitely. "


The "excellent" results of the low fat vegetarian promoters are marginal! If you look at their papers it shows a small single percentage point reduction for a fraction of the people only. We have talked about that before. Atkins didn't finish his diabetes programme and the study he started, because he died.


High fat low carb diets, including Atkins diet (providing that it is not a low fat bastardised variety) have excellent results in controlling blood sugar and eliminating diabetic drugs in diabetics. Go to Nutrition and Metabolism, BMJ or Pubmed website and search for diabetes, low carbohydrates or carbohydrate restriction. Low carb Atkins, Paleo, Optimal etc work so much better than the high carbohydrate diet that even the ADA are talking of modifying their existing guidelines in such a way as not to sound completely stupid (and avoid being sued by millions of their victims or surviving families). Those vegetarian diets that do work for some diabetics do so as long as they reduce carbohydrate intake. If they do not reduce carbohydrate reduction then they do not stabilize blood sugar! Fat is the problem only if you take it half and half with carbs and if you overfeed at the same time. No study that used normal or hypo-caloric diets has ever showed that 10% is better than 30%.


Fuhrman is basically telling you the same story!


The recent study showing that fried food in Spain had no correlation whatsoever with the heart disease is also trying to tell you something. (BTW - the highest fried fat group had noticeably lower blood pressure! - JC please take notice).


Dolores, I am quite surprised that you are still believing in an outdated very low fat paradigm in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that has been flooding the medical magazines over the last decade. You cannot anihilate all that evidence by denigrating Atkins. Atkins is dead. Exchanging opinions with the like-minded McDougall's cultists may only provide an illusory comfort.. They are spiritually dead. (BTW are you posting there as "Didi"?) There is more to life than vegetables. Try it - enjoy a nice meal with low salt fatty cuts of bacon and green vegetables like Chinese or Koreans meals (no bread!). Don't worry, this will not spike your blood sugar. Guaranteed!

Stan

Re: " But,we have to consider the many people on the low fat version of a plant based diet(McDougall) appear to do very well on the low fat diet."


I don't think so. I simply doubt it! Since their discussion groups (all of them that I have seen!) are closed to all dissent and highly filtered, they most likely keep purging those posters who report problems or aren't doing particularly well. You are only seeing those that do really well, and if you notice the pattern, almost all of those who do really well are only practicing a low fat veganism for just a couple of years, typically. There are very few long term thriving pure vegans, say more than 10 years. They do exist but since it seems to be a tiny minority of the cases I have a strong suspicion that those "star" vegans may be practicing "marketing" of facts. I am skeptical of those claims although I have no proof.


Stan

You may find Dr. William Davis interview interesting:

http://traffic.libsyn.com/askthelowcarbexperts/ATLCX-3-dr-william-davis.mp3

Comparing whole grains to processed grains....vs....comparing whole grains to no grains.

any studies on this ?(whole to none)

I have seen a number of studies that show processed meats like bacon to be linked to serious illnesses.It may be the nitrates???....do you think bacon is healthy?

long term low fat vegans.....Rip Esselstyn,the fireman...the children and grandchildren of McDougall,Campbell etc.

marketing of facts....something we need keep an eye on....but then you said you considered Esselstyn to be an honest man.

But my mostly vegan diet has tamed my blood pressure and blood sugar.The diet did cause extensive weight loss(far beyond what I wanted),and its possible the benefits are due to wt loss....but I don't think so.If I eat a few pieces of bacon my systolic bllod pressure is in the 150s the next morning... from the mid 120s.Christmas,Thanksgiving,and Easter I break my diet....and my BG and BP pay the price.Could be the sodium in meat.

If you listen to Dr. Davis interview (see the link I posted), he is mentioning that not all conditions can be remedied by a low carb no wheat diet. He said that some endocrine disorders such as hypo or hyper adrenaline, hypo or hyper thyroid may require special treatment other than just a diet. In either of the above mentioned situations your blood pressure may be abnormal. The fact that your blood pressure goes immediately up the moment you add some fatty meat, may indicate that the vegetarian diet has masked your underlying disorder rather than cured it.

A hypocaloric diet would also lower your blood pressure, with or without a fat. Too much calories would increase your blood pressure regardless if you did it with pure potatoes or with pure meat.

Vegan diets (except fruitarian) tend to be hypocaloric because of very low density of calories in the green vegetables combined with their incomplete digestion, especially of raw vegetables.

Re: nitrates in bacon and packaged meats.

I think so too. Nitrates seem to have a profound but subtle effect, far worse than salt. They seem to correlate with intestinal cancer. For example packaged meats seem to correlate with colon cancer but unprocessed meats do not (I had a paper reference somewhere).

Stan