Diet Debate

Here is the site...scroll down for my two messages.

http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2012/01/back-to-basics-coronary-calcium.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A blogspot%2Ftpzx %28The Heart Scan Blog%29

the site is unavailable
dolores

Try again.It just worked for me.

Yes, I found it. So he is saying, as opposed to what EG believes, that an IMT scan is not as good evidence-wise as the calcium score? I think I may have posted somewhere here what I learned about calcium scoring. It could be a good test, but on the other hand, your arteries could be filled with gunk that does not show up on a calcium scan. I also read it is NOT a definitive test. People who show no calcium in the arteries have heart attacks.

JC, does Davis say that on his diet the calcium coated plaques disappear and people regain their health? And have no more angina or never need stents or surgery?

Tests or not, how do millions of people around the world eat grains, not just as a side dish but as their main staple, and yet remain free of heart disease and other degenerative diseases?

The Inuit were the ultimate Atkins dieters and yet are not long lived and did have degenerative diseases which were even found in 500 year old frozen remains. And let us assume that Atkins himself followed his diet--and had heart disease. And Atkins himself found his diet was not working to reverse diabetes. And I think the Masai myth has been exploded.

And how come Esselstyn's original patients had such a great improvement in their health on a fat free plant based diet (with grains)?

Has Davis had patients who reversed heart disease and remained free of angina or other artery problems? Has he published studies on these patients?

Dolores

Has he published data showing his approach works....yes in pub med...i posted it several years ago.I was not overly impressed with the data....the degree of improvement was not that great....but then neither was Esses if you look at the actual data(according to davis)

He says that Esse really has no demonstrated results despite what we have been told and the data is highly manipulated to say the least.

The only thing that is in Davis's favor is that the medical establishment and medical authorities(willet and company)don't accept it as demonstrated sci results.....at least not yet.

So can one make the claim they have shown demonstrated scientific results.....NO they can not.....its not science yet.



Do I think they have a good case that will at some future date rise to the level of science....YES.

You and I base our beliefs on our own personal results.We eat tons of carbs and it gets our blood glucose and blood pressure under control.I don't really care that it does not yet rise to the level of science.....it works.

Scroll down under Dr Davis's article and read my second comment.....he did not address the reason my diet is working for me....which was disappointing.

I agree with you, jc. But without rising to the level of science one can see things. (Of course, anything you see can be subject to misinterpretation).

What I see is that people who lose weight, no matter what the method, low carb or higher carb low fat, seem to get healthier. I said seem. Dave Mendosa who has a wonderful website and who writes extensively about diabetes, is on a low carb diet and fairly recently used Byetta and now is very thin and no longer on meds. His blood sugars and HbA1c are normal. I do not know about any other risk factors he might have. I suspect his sugars will rise again, just as H suspects I am in trouble.

I am on a no fat (mostly) plant based diet and use about 9 ounces of fish a week because I do not trust non standardized and unregulated supplement manufacturers for my B12. I have been exercising more and my blood sugars are around 80 each morning.

I am still not at my normal weight and yet my sugars are normal. Mr. Mendosa achieved normal sugars when he got very thin.

Eating fat in the past gave me chest and back pain which may have been either cardiac or gastrointestinal. So I do without it and do not miss it nor do I ever crave it. Drastically lowering salt intake is a tremendous sacrifice, however.

Pritikin's arteries upon autopsy were clean as a baby's. Atkins had heart disease. So you have to make decisions before the science can give you incontrovertible proof. And I am going with low meat, no dairy, very low fat, higher whole food carbs and lots of fruits and vegetables and beans and some wild caught sockeye salmon and clams for B12, D and omega three's.

Fuhrman's diet, bye the way, is very low carb. And McDougall's is not.

I just took three fasting readings with my reli on monitor. They were 70, 82, and 69. Yesterday my last meal of the day was three microwaved potatoes with some jarred no fat tomato sauce and an orange for dessert. I was in a hurry and had just come home from my watching my first group of grandchildren and I was rushing to get to my next grandchild babysitting gig. When I came home from watching the grandkids I had an orange. No exercise for two days. LOW CARB PEOPLE ARE FAINTING IN DISBELIEF.

Dolores

I can't get full enough on just vegetables so my diet will have to remain somewhere between Fuhrman and McDougall....lots of brown rice,beans ,and potatoes,but a small salad with every meal and a cup of steamed vegetables....and nuts.

Here is a link to Dr Davis's site.

http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2012/01/back-to-basics-coronary-calcium.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A blogspot%2Ftpzx %28The Heart Scan Blog%29

I posted you a reply (hope Dr. Davis will reply too).

Quote:


... I am not a doctor but 150/85 that you had on a high meat, fat and low carb, seems still OK! Its not clear to me why did you have to change that diet? Have you not quit a LC diet too prematurely perhaps? Experiences of other high fat low carb nutrition proponents in Europe (see especially books by Dr. J.K.) have shown that it takes about 2 years to see a significant effect upon cardiovascular health for patients with advanced arteriosclerosis.


I hope Dr. Davis can step in to, clarify this. I know you are above retirement and male but it may help to provide your exact age and a history of your hypertention. Even if you were practicing some sport and have clear coronary arteries, your peripheral arteries may still be partially occluded creating a condition conjusive towards a hypertention. AFAIK it is possible to have clear coronary (heart) artieries and at the same time have occluded peripheral arteries. Also your pre-diabetes may have been a factor too on the SAD since high insulin makes arteries less flexible.
Stan

H, what do you mean by two years to show a significant effect upon cardiovascular health for patients with advanced arteriosclerosis? Do you mean risk factors or no more angina pain, no heart events, blood pressure lowering, lower glucose? I believe that very low fat, low meat, no dairy dieters experience relief from angina pain, lower blood pressure and blood sugars, and increase in endothelial function way faster than two years.

Dolores

Thanks Stan,I looked at my old blood pressure readings to refresh my memory and many of the readings were in the low 170s/90 but the median score was around 156-160/85-88.The rapid rise scared me but it was fun while it lasted because I love butter,meat,cheese,and tons of fat.I don't know how my low renin hypertension fits into this but I am very sensitive to sodium/salt.The only salt/sodium I get is that found naturally in vegetables,beans,nuts,and potatoes.
Many years ago (around 2006) you posted some data that correlated blood pressure with cornary events and the link was not as strong as you would expect given all the hysteria about blood pressure.I would have to be convinced blood pressure in the 170s and 180s was not that serious before I would go back to the paleo style diet again.My near vegan diet has also tamed my blood glucose which is now consistently below 85.Before that in was in the 97-99 range.A number of years ago before I lost about 80 lbs it was in the mid 130s.
So going back to a plaeo style diet I would have to accept higher blood pressure and blood glucose levels....170sBP and high 90s FBG.If I am convinced that those levels are safe it would change my perspective.

I am 62 yrs old and very active physically although I have recently quit running and playing pick-up basketball due to a knee injuty but I still play a great deal of table tennis for several hours a day and golf once a week.I get more exercise now since I retired from coaching and teaching.

jc, if you lost a lot of weight, your blood sugar would come down almost irrespective of what you were eating. But I do not think it would stay down on a high fat low carb diet.

David Mendosa lost a lot of weight on byetta and now takes no meds at all. He is an avid low carber. Is he damaging his arteries? I don't know.

Dolores

Dolores,

The answer on all your questions is resounding yes!.

Both high fat and and vegetarian diets lower the total carbohydrate load, the former more so than the latter thus brings typically better results and faster for more people. The best trial for the high animal fat low carb (Kwasniewski's Optimal diet) on 50 cardiac patients was done around 1979 in Lodz (Poland) by dr. Berger (I quote from memory, may be inaccurate). After a few months all patients improved (all symptoms), none got worse and lab test improved as well. The test was abruptly halted due to an imposition of the Martial Law in Poland and results never published but are known through private communication. Almost all of the patients continued the diet on their own and almost all were still alive 20 years later when this information got reported in the press.

The symptoms (angina) improve almost immediately, hypertention too, EXCEPT if that is caused by severe arteriosclerosis, especially in the brain arteries. In such a case heart is forced to produce more flow to maintain a constant flow through the brain.

JC,

I doubt if that was due to the salt. Meat does not normally contain inordinate amounts of sodium, unless you ate only packaged meat like saussages, ham bacon etc. Your low blood pressure on a vegan diet may be more of a result of malnutrition and the run-down condition of your body. A heart maintains an elevated blood pressure if it has to. If it has to but can't due toi malnutrition, then it won't!

H.

Another factor modulating your hypertension is an imbalance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic autonomous nervous system (look it up on wiki).

An overactive sympathetic system may produce hypertiention.

Tobacco smoking is a powerful sympathetic system stimulant (up to about 15 cigarettes a day). To stimulate the parasympathetic system one would require a different kind of a smoke and it is often used for that purpose! You have to check if it is allowed in your state.


H.