Diet Debate
We debate the various types of diets.
5% less sat fat and more carbs=7% more coronary!
Heretk posted:
Am J Clin Nutr 2009;89:1425—32
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37202414/Jakobsen_2009.pdf
For a 5% lower energy intake from SFAs and a concomitant higher energy intake from carbohydrates, there was a modest signi?cant direct association between carbohydrates and coronary events (hazard ratio: 1.07; 95% CI: 1.01, 1.14);
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37202414/Jakobsen_2009.pdf
For a 5% lower energy intake from SFAs and a concomitant higher energy intake from carbohydrates, there was a modest signi?cant direct association between carbohydrates and coronary events (hazard ratio: 1.07; 95% CI: 1.01, 1.14);
4 Replies |Watch This Discussion | Report This| Share this:5% less sat fat and more carbs=7% more coronary!Am J Clin Nutr 2009;89:1425—32<br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37202414/Jakobsen_2009.pdf">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37202414/Jakobsen_2009.pdf</a> <br /><br /><i>For a 5% lower energy intake from SFAs and a concomitant higher energy intake from carbohydrates, there was a modest signi?cant direct association between carbohydrates and coronary events (hazard ratio: 1.07; 95% CI: 1.01, 1.14);</i><br /><i><br /></i>
DoloresTeresa responded:
Uh. H, did you actually read this article? In some cases there was an improvement by replacing with carbs. It looks like the conclusion was that it was not detrimental. Also in the discussion it says that they did not determine the quality of the carbs. And they used the subjects recall to determine diets. Also years ago I read in pritikin about an israeli study in which they found that polys were more detrimental than sat fats.
Furthermore I am wondering about categories of fat, protein and carbs. Do the researchers consider a steak to be protein? Are french fries carbs?
And I couldn't read the sideways charts.
So Esselstyn's patients in his study should all have died from the no fat all carb diet. Remember, his initial group was made up of people who either wouldn't or couldn't undergo any more medical intervention.
Did this article persuade you to give up sat fat (as in the fatty meat you eat) and switch to a diet of polyunsaturated fat?
Dolores
Furthermore I am wondering about categories of fat, protein and carbs. Do the researchers consider a steak to be protein? Are french fries carbs?
And I couldn't read the sideways charts.
So Esselstyn's patients in his study should all have died from the no fat all carb diet. Remember, his initial group was made up of people who either wouldn't or couldn't undergo any more medical intervention.
Did this article persuade you to give up sat fat (as in the fatty meat you eat) and switch to a diet of polyunsaturated fat?
Dolores
Report This| Share this:5% less sat fat and more carbs=7% more coronary!Uh. H, did you actually read this article? In some cases there was an improvement by replacing with carbs. It looks like the conclusion was that it was not detrimental. Also in the discussion it says that they did not determine the quality of the carbs. And they used the subjects recall to determine diets. Also years ago I read in pritikin about an israeli study in which they found that polys were more detrimental than sat fats. <br /><br />Furthermore I am wondering about categories of fat, protein and carbs. Do the researchers consider a steak to be protein? Are french fries carbs?<br /><br />And I couldn't read the sideways charts.<br /><br />So Esselstyn's patients in his study should all have died from the no fat all carb diet. Remember, his initial group was made up of people who either wouldn't or couldn't undergo any more medical intervention.<br /><br />Did this article persuade you to give up sat fat (as in the fatty meat you eat) and switch to a diet of polyunsaturated fat?<br /><br />Dolores
Heretk replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
No it would persuade me (and it shouldn't). The effect was studied under SAD (it is a compilation of many studies), and does not tell us anything about the high fat low carb diet, or about moderate carbohydrate diets such as low fat vegan.
It did point out some anomalies between poly mono and sat fats. I agree that the paper was weak, however my main purpose was to point out that the often cited statement (e.g. Ornish as he stated it on the webmd once) that "all fat is bad and saturated fat is particularly bad" is simply a baseless BS that can be easily contradicted by the studies like above.
Remember that the scientific method postulates that even one contradictory evidence like the one above is sufficient to falsify the low fat vegan guru theory, relegating it to the "bigfoot" files.
Heretic
It did point out some anomalies between poly mono and sat fats. I agree that the paper was weak, however my main purpose was to point out that the often cited statement (e.g. Ornish as he stated it on the webmd once) that "all fat is bad and saturated fat is particularly bad" is simply a baseless BS that can be easily contradicted by the studies like above.
Remember that the scientific method postulates that even one contradictory evidence like the one above is sufficient to falsify the low fat vegan guru theory, relegating it to the "bigfoot" files.
Heretic
Report This| Share this:5% less sat fat and more carbs=7% more coronary!No it would persuade me (and it shouldn't). The effect was studied under SAD (it is a compilation of many studies), and does not tell us anything about the high fat low carb diet, or about moderate carbohydrate diets such as low fat vegan.<br /><br />It did point out some anomalies between poly mono and sat fats. I agree that the paper was weak, however my main purpose was to point out that the often cited statement (e.g. Ornish as he stated it on the webmd once) that "all fat is bad and saturated fat is particularly bad" is simply a baseless BS that can be easily contradicted by the studies like above. <br /><br />Remember that the scientific method postulates that even one contradictory evidence like the one above is sufficient to falsify the low fat vegan guru theory, relegating it to the "bigfoot" files. <br />Heretic
I have to recommend reading this article:
http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/saturated-fat-on-your-plate-or-in-your-blood/
In particular this quote:
The essential point of what I now call the Volek-Westman principle — the idea that it is more important than diets where it is impossible to get any agreement on definitions — the principle is that carbohydrate, directly or indirectly through insulin and other hormones, controls what happens to ingested (or stored) fatty acids. The motto of the Nutrition & Metabolism Society is: "A high fat diet in the presence of carbohydrate is different than a high fat diet in the presence of low carbohydrate."
http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/saturated-fat-on-your-plate-or-in-your-blood/
In particular this quote:
The essential point of what I now call the Volek-Westman principle — the idea that it is more important than diets where it is impossible to get any agreement on definitions — the principle is that carbohydrate, directly or indirectly through insulin and other hormones, controls what happens to ingested (or stored) fatty acids. The motto of the Nutrition & Metabolism Society is: "A high fat diet in the presence of carbohydrate is different than a high fat diet in the presence of low carbohydrate."
Report This| Share this:5% less sat fat and more carbs=7% more coronary!I have to recommend reading this article:<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/saturated-fat-on-your-plate-or-in-your-blood/">http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/saturated-fat-on-your-plate-or-in-your-blood/</a> <br /><br />In particular this quote:<br /><i>The essential point of what I now call the Volek-Westman principle — the idea that it is more important than diets where it is impossible to get any agreement on definitions — the principle is that carbohydrate, directly or indirectly through insulin and other hormones, controls what happens to ingested (or stored) fatty acids. The motto of the Nutrition & Metabolism Society is: "A high fat diet in the presence of carbohydrate is different than a high fat diet in the presence of low carbohydrate." </i>
DoloresTeresa replied to Heretk's response:
It seems that just the opposite is true. Ingested or stored fatty acids directly or indirectly control what happens to carbs (ultimately sugars) because fat blocks insulin receptors on the cell. Atkins said to go off his diet for a week before a glucose tolerance test because otherwise you will test diabetic. This is why if you are eating a high fat diet you dare not eat starches because it is the fat that will interfere with the carbs not the other way around.
Dolores
Dolores
Report This| Share this:5% less sat fat and more carbs=7% more coronary!It seems that just the opposite is true. Ingested or stored fatty acids directly or indirectly control what happens to carbs (ultimately sugars) because fat blocks insulin receptors on the cell. Atkins said to go off his diet for a week before a glucose tolerance test because otherwise you will test diabetic. This is why if you are eating a high fat diet you dare not eat starches because it is the fat that will interfere with the carbs not the other way around. <br /><br />Dolores
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