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    track your plaque
    DoloresTeresa posted:
    Here is something from dr. Davis track your plaque:

    Holy cow! You have to carry around your supplements in a shoe box. One wonders what taking all these supplements and eating a high carb low fat diet would do to your plaque. I am not impressed.

    I read something by Dr. McDougall in which he says for women with a high calcium score, he puts them on his diet for a couple of years then re scans and if the score hasn't lowered he will use a statin. Doesn't make anymore sense to me than Davis's program.

    jc3737 responded:
    But his program does work to stop cardio least thats what he says and he does have a peer reviewed study to back it up....and he treats tons of his patients and claims none of them have strokes or heart attacks.

    And you can have steak,bacon and eggs etc....I would take a few pills for that reward.

    But,At this point I will still go with the McDougall/Fuhrman diet but with questions and reservations and not at all sure I'm right.
    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    I haven't read his studies but I wonder how long he has been treating them. Don't forget that if they are losing weight that will improve their health. I do not believe you can have steak, bacon and eggs and not end up with clogged arteries. It may be true but I will take a lot of convincing. (did you see the list of supplements? More than a few pills.) If they were eating a plant based, low fat and animal protein diet wouldn't they be getting all the nutrients he is supplying through supplements?

    jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    Eating steak,bacon and eggs etc and not getting heart happens all the time and there are those that eat far worse...tons of people eat the SAD...all kinds of junk food and lead long healthy lives.But there are many who can't get away with that.Its apparent you and I can not eat like that.

    The question is how do the paleo dieters compare with McDougall vegans?

    Maybe we will know in another 20 years.
    heretk replied to jc3737's response:
    Not just "not getting heart disease" on a LC HF diet is remarkable!

    Positive outcomes are indeed reported so often and a converse - heart attack cases on the low carb high fat diet happen so rarely that I know of only one such case (no it is not Dr. Atkins...) , ever since I started researching it.
    How does LC HF compare with veganism(*)? This should be already apparent, even based on anecdotal reports. Many if not most long term vegans are not anymore vegans after a decade or so, typically. Even those who do remain vegans do tend add more protein and fat and reduce wheat (hello EG!) to make it work. Look at the "Health Issues" section of McD forum, you will find lots of reports of health problems. Many of them are sick people.

    Many people whose arthritis, diabetes, thyroid, bone and other diseases keep progressing or reoccuring. You don't often enough hear of people whose vegan diet didn't work because they quietly abandon it, and if they do post they are inevitably accused of trolling and their failure blamed on non-compliance. They completely avoid any discussion! No exchange of information in the scientific sense! A good example is Dr. McD and Jeff - talking about scientific method all the time on their forum yet seem to believe that they are somehow exempt from the same type of scrutiny in their own work. Beware! I have to warn everyone about following "gurus" like that! (or about following any guru for that matter...)

    Low carb, high fat or paleo diets may have its own set of problems although in my experience and based on my (anecdotal) observation - much less so and much less frequently.

    The only difficulty for many people on LC comes from the fact that you have to go against the public opinion - BIG way! Some people can't take it (while some enjoy it...)


    *) I am refering to a 100% plant based diet, not a mixed unrefined plant based diet with some fish or meat added etc., which I think is OK.
    Tomato05 replied to heretk's response:
    Since adding more protein and fat to my diet (and lowering my carbs) my osteoporosis has shown an improvement for the first time in 8 years. But then, I am also exercising more, so that must be an additional factor.
    DoloresTeresa replied to heretk's response:
    H, I know the mummy of an Inuit woman who died about 500 years ago at the age of around 40 was found to have atherosclerosis. She did not get it from the stuff she bought at the bakery. I believe a few more frozen bodies from that many years ago have also been found with atherosclerosis.

    The inuit are neither long lived nor healthy. (Of course I have to admit I wouldn't last five minutes if someone dropped me off in the arctic no matter what my diet,)

    What do you mean you have to go against public opinion to be on low carb? Everyone is on low carb. I have seen many videos in which people have had by pass surgeries and/or suffer from diabetes, high blood pressure etc. who state they could never give up their meat. Go onto the webmd diabetes support group and you will not find that anyone is on anything but low carb. I think all but two are on meds and/or insulin and the answer to increasing blood sugar numbers is--less carb, less carb, less carb.

    I have seen people write on the McD website that the diet isn't working for them. Then they should get off it. Same with a low carb diet.

    Dr. Esselstyn treats patients who have lasted twenty years longer than the prognostications of their cardiologists would have dreamed. Apparently Dr. Davis claims the same success rate. So you pick your guru and take your chances.

    heretk replied to DoloresTeresa's response:

    BTW, I don't have gurus, I am a heretic, I rely on myself not on anybody else! Show me an idol or guru and I will show you it is full of ...

    Best regards,

    P.S. You can find also Egyptian mummies of people living on all "organic" whole grains, fruit meat and fish, riddled with arteriosclerosis, arthritis and GKW.
    DoloresTeresa replied to heretk's response:
    H, re no heart attacks among low carbers. I peek in on the web md diabetes support group every now and then and it seems to me that just about everyone is on low carb, insists their blood sugars rise with carbs, eat animal protein with most meals, eat fats (I don't know if they are polys or saturated) and just about all but two are on meds and/or insulin. Many report that their sugars keep going up and the mantra remains--less carbs, less carbs. And they add another pill or more insulin.

    I point this out because diabetics are very susceptible to heart attacks. Here is what dr. Atkins says on page 192 of his book, Dr. Atkins Nutrition Breakthrough:

    I get spectacular results in reducing or eliminating insulin by instituting a low carbohydrate regimen. Unfortunately, the control is not always for a lifetime, for some diabetics seem to "adjust" to the new regimen after a while and spill sugar again--meaning they need insulin again........any vacation from insulin and its potential side effects may well help to prolong a diabetic's life span. So, his diet provides a "vacation". Hardly what you would consider a passport to good health. Neither does he define what " a while" is.

    Later in the book Atkins comes up with his "meat and millet" diet for diabetics who don't need to lose weight. I am assuming that this applies to both people who are thin type twos and those who have lost weight after being fat for some time. Although on the diabetes support group there are people who report the need to increase meds and they are not at their normal weight. He uses all kinds of whole unrefined grains.

    He says on page 275 of the same book that his meat and millet diet is the best blood sugar controlling diet he has devised for normal weight diabetics. On it, one is not in ketosis, eats complex unrefined carbs and has plenty of fiber.

    Elsewhere in several of his books he says if you are going to have a glucose tolerance test that you should eat at least 150 grams of carbs each day for four days before the test or it will not be accurate.

    Pritikin wrote in his book that Himsworth and Sweeny both created diabetics by putting them on a very high fat diet. I am assuming he meant according to GTT tests because after the experiment when they went back to their regular diets they tested normal. Other subjects were put on very high sugar diets with most of the calories coming from sugar (not carbs) and none of them tested diabetic. These were all healthy young men in the studies.

    It was revealed (unethically) that Atkins himself suffered some sort of heart or artery problem but the family would not allow an autopsy. Unless it was for religious reasons you would think they would be happy to have his heart and arteries officially checked. Pritikin's family did allow an autopsy and the official report was that his arteries were clean as a baby's.

    DoloresTeresa replied to heretk's response:
    So,H, if you were to fall down a well you wouldn't want to rely on an expert who would know how to drill a parallel shaft and come to your rescue? You would rely on yourself to escape from the well?

    Or if you needed your diseased appendix removed you would rely on yourself? (Which reminds me of Marryin' Sam, the minister in the Lil Abner comic strip, who as the finale of the spectacular 5 dollar wedding removed his own appendix. But I digress.

    jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    Heretic would not create that situation in the first place and would have no need to get help.
    jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    From my own personal experience a vegan diet definitely works to lower blood glucose....and blood pressure.

    My FBG has gone from 136 to about 82.All of my healthy non diabetic friends have FBG anywhere from 88-105 and no one I know has a FBG as low as mine.....of my friends approx my age.
    heretk replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    JC is correct! When I was cast aside of any health/welfare system, while living in West Germany for 2 years, I never got sick. Not even a flu that I used to get regularly before. It taught me a very powerful lesson, on what is really going on. Unless one tries it oneself it is impossible to explain. It is OK not to believe in it too.

    I heard of a story of a doctor removing his own appendix. It was an arctic expedition or a sailing trip.
    heretk replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    Regarding diabetics, I agree with you to some extent but my conclusions are different.

    There seems to be more going on with diabetes than just "glucose intolerance" or "sugar overload". My current working hypothesis is that they are caught between two crippling conditions:
    1) insulin resistance
    2) mitochondrial destruction

    Condition 1 creates what we refer to as "glucose intolerance", that is it forces them to ingest more and more carbs to burn the same amount of glucose for energy. At the same time it leads to hyperinsulinemia which then leads to overweight, heart disease risk, PCOS risk etc. On the high carb diet they are able to overcome the falling metabolic yield due to insulin resistance by pushing more glucose into their system and by triggering production (or injecting) of more insulin. Notice that glucose metabolism may take place in the mitochondria as well as outside of the mitochondria - that is the crucial point!

    Condition 2 on the other hand prevents them from attaining the normal energy level on a high fat diet! Fat is transported throughout the body in the blood stream by VLDL ("Triglycerides") and can only be metabolised in the mitochondria! That poses a metabolic clamp on the maximum energy release for the body function if the mitochondria are depleted, that cannot be overcome by "pushing" more fat from food or by releasing own body fat!

    In fact, attempting to consume more fat above the mitochondrial limit, or when loosing weight too rapidly that is accompanied by release of too much own fat into the blood stream - can make one feel really sick! The symptoms are as under an accute infection, that is general weakness, sometimes fever, nausea and typically a massive headache that cannot be remedied with aspirin.

    The symptoms are like of an infectious disease because it is the immune system that has to dispose of the excessive fat and clean out the debris from the overloaded cells.

    Basically, a diabetic has got a choice of either (a) maintain a normal metabolism and have a normal energy level on a high carbohydrate diet by pushing a lot of carbs into their body, overcomming the resistance with the sheer concentration of glucose and with insulin or diabetic drugs.

    (b) They can accept and live with a lower metabolic energy level on a low caloric high carb diet such as Pritikin's etc.

    c) They can accept and live with even lower metabolic energy level on a low caloric high fat diet such as Kwasniewski's Optimal diet, Atkins, Paleo etc.

    Out of the 3 scenarios only one (a) allow a diabetic to experience and maintain a normal energy level albeit at the cost of continous mitochondrial deterioration, progression of all diabetic symptoms and shortened life span.

    Out of the three scenarios only one (c) allows a patients to gradually (over about 7 years) to recover from mitochondrial depletion through a complete cellular rebuilt (from stem cells).



    GTT (oral glucose tolerance test) that uses 100g of glucose, will always be somewhat abnormal for a person on a high fat low carbohydrate diet! Even if you take a perfectly healthy 20 years old! There is nothing pathological about it, just a normal biochemistry and body's adaptation - it is like if you poured 87 octane gasoline to a racing car that requires 91 octane. If you want to measure glucose tolerance on a mix diet population that includes low carbers you have to use 50g tests. The test works just the same except the calibration curves and limits are slightly lower.
    heretk replied to heretk's response:
    I forgot to finish with this (the main reason for typing such a long response):

    - It seems that the problems some (but not all) diabetics experience on an Atkins like diet stem from the fact that they attempt to increase their metabolic yield through overfeeding!.

    If they overfeed using fat it brings the symptoms like I described above. If they try overfeeding with protein it brings other problems, one of them being conversion of excessive protein into glucose and then the body having to deal with excess fat, protein and glucose at the same time.

    I realize that a high fat low carb diet is easy for me but it may be quite difficult for a diabetic patient. It requires a certain amount of determination to maintain a discipline because one of the diabetic symptoms is an incessant hunger. There is no easy "fix"! For a type 2 diabetic, the easiest way is perhaps the scenario (a) - the road to "hell". From my own observation of diabetic people than I know, the second easiest path is (c) because of the hunger-quenching property of fat, although it does require an acceptance of low energy level (if you are diabetic). I believe that (b) is actually the hardest.


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