Diet Debate

Thanks, jc. I posted this on McDougall.

Dolores

I look for Heretic to challenge this.I would be disappointed if he ddid not.

Quote (from the abstract):

DIM also inhibited the growth of primary goiter cells by 70% compared to untreated controls.

So, cruciterous vegentables are supposed to be good because they kill off new thyroid cell proliferationg in goiter tissue? How about killing off 70% of new cells in a NORMAL thyroid tissue as well? Is that supposed to be good too?

Another paper I read some time ago postulated that goitrogenic compounds from crucifers (mostly isothiocyants) are the main thyroid hormones suppressants, which cause thyroid gland to overproduce the hormones to compensate. That was supposed to be the mechanism behind the enlargement of thyroid gland, causing "goiter" symptoms.

Now, what would happens if your thyroid gland had to increase the production of thyroxines hormones to compensate against the hormone blockers, while at the same time another compound from the same vegetable was increasing the apoptosis (cell death) of the thyroid gland by 70%?

That doesn't strike me as very good news for broccoli!

H.

I read some time ago the "damage" caused by goitrogenic foods like cruciterous vegetables was because they could deplete iodine and they were harmless given an adequate intake of iodine.Although many do not get enough iodine in their diet so I can see why it could be a problem.

Heretic, we can always depend on you. In your reading did you come across anything that said that goitrogenic compounds are rendered harmless by cooking? I eat lots of crucifers but usually cooked except for some raw cauliflower on occasion.

Did you read for a fact that dim kills off normal cells and not just cancer or goiter cells or are you speculating.

The paper you cited talked about postulating a reaction. Is it possible the study jc cited denies what had been postulated?

Do people in our culture eat enough cruciferous vegetables (despite their being promoted as anti cancer substances) that your predictions have come true? Are there any studies showing that those who eat lots of cruciferous vegetables are getting more cancer and more goiter?

Dolores

Re: ... goitrogenic compounds are rendered harmless by cooking?


Yes, one of the articles I scanned the other day mentioned that crucifer goitrogenes are depleted to a various degree by cooking, and looses almost all of it by cooking for 1h and throwing out the water. However, the same article said that this does not apply to millet because the compounds are different and no amount of cooking or processing can render millet to be safe for humans.


Re: Did you read for a fact that dim kills off normal cells and not just cancer or goiter cells or are you speculating.


I drew a logical conclusion based on assumption that enlarged thyroid contains simiar types of cells as a non-enlarged one. but it is a speculation nevertheless and I may be wrong. An opposite conclusion that it would have had a drastically different (i.e. not apoptotic) effect on normal thyroid is also speculative, probably even more so.


Re: The paper you cited talked about postulating a reaction


Not sure what does it mean. The cited study does not talk about normal thyroid, it is highly focused upon a pathology and in-vitro.


Re: Do people in our culture eat enough cruciferous vegetables (despite their being promoted as anti cancer substances) that your predictions have come true?


Yes or yes up until very recently. When I was at school (1960-ties) we were cautioned not to eat too much cabbage or cauliflower (they were very cheap back then) because of thyroid and a danger of stunted growth and neurological retardation for young children. Goiter used to be fairly common in some poor villages in Poland, esp in the mountainous south - due to a cabbage and potatoes diet (that was officially stated). Since introduction of iodized salt, that became much less common.


Re: Are there any studies showing that those who eat lots of cruciferous vegetables are getting more cancer and more goiter?

Don't know about cancer but I will find more data on goiter vs crucifers by my next post. It is important to understand that goiter (visible enlargement) is rare in the West due to medical cover, it can be and is being masked out by supplementation (iodine and thyroid hormone) but thyroid can be easily remedied by supplementation but thyroid disease is quite common regardless.
Meantime it is hard not to notice a rather large number of vegetarians on mcdougall forum with a thyroid problem.
[rant>
Basically I find it curious that a plant-based diet consisting of cabbage, potatoes and very little meat that was known to cause problems in Europe unless carefully supplemented, is now being hailed as "superhealthy" by the American vegan promoters.
Regards,H.

I wonder if people on the McDougall board have thyroid problems because of diabetes. Or having formerly had high blood sugars. Dave Mendosa on his website discusses the high rate of thyroid problems among diabetics. However, I also notice on the low carb diabetes group that quite a few people also are on synthroid and they certainly are not vegans.

Re: thyroid problems among certain Poles. There are areas of the world that are notoriously low on iodine--the closer to the ocean the more iodine--and if people are only eating locally it is likely they might get goiter.

Dolores