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    Plants suck!
    heretk posted:
    Humankind has probably been eating some minor amount of fruit and nuts seasonally, supplementing game meat and fish, throughout most part of our ancestry, that is a couple of millions of years, probably. It is highly unlikely that such food would suddenly turn out to be generally harmful. That cannot be said about some more recent plant derived food produce consumed in unprecedently large quantities - most notably the grains.

    Ancient Egyptian mummies have been found riddled with "modern" degenerative diseases, including heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, diabets and other. From eating fish and meat? I don't think so! The grains are the most likely culprit!

    Mass consumption of grains (and starchy vegetables!) has only been possible since the advent of modern style agriculture, settled communities using fire and cooking, that is around 7500BC in the Middle East and somewhat later elsewhere.

    DMW mentioned the plants' anti-oxidant.

    I think that is a very complex subject. If you read the refs I posted in the other thread, they may indicate that consumption of plants is a double-edged sword. It adds antioxidants and vitamins but it also accelerates DNA damage.

    On the positive side:

    - yes it is better to eat plants than nothing, if nothing else is available. Regardless of what has been said a death by starvation is worse than eating some dodgy wild fruit or vegetables, for a short while, until a next successful hunt or fish catch.

    - yes, plants do contain soma anti-oxidant and vitamins, but also ...

    on the negative side:

    - those same plants may contains some phytotoxins and large amount of compounds (notably fructose) that generate troublesome metabolic byproducts using up those anti-oxidants and vitamins (i.e. carbs metabolism requires vitamin C) and tying up a large portion of body's immune system for cleanup.

    - most plants' macronutrients are not very compatible with human digestion and requirements. Most commonly available plants are very high (too high) in carbohydrates. Those that are not high in carbs are often (with some rare exceptions) high in the type of fats (polynsaturated) that are not as well tolerated as animal fats, in large meal staple quantities. Those plants that are not very high in carbs and fats, are high in a kind of proteins (aminoacids) that are also not well matched to human requirements.


    jc3737 responded:
    Heretic,Here is the problem I have with your analysis:Some may be born to eat carbs.

    Rural Chinese and also personal experience....

    I have a friend who came to this country from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War.He fought with the Americans as a South V soldier.We often play table tennis and he will leap through the air as quick as a cat and hit the ball at 80mph past me so fast I have no time to react.He is small but very active healthy and alert.Not bad for an 91 yr old.

    His diet is over 90% rice.Unlike many who immigrate to the US he has not picked up the SAD.
    heretk replied to jc3737's response:
    The idea that South East Asians eat nothing but vegetables is a myth. The main difference compared with the West is that they eat no bread (!).

    Thai consume on average 35% fat (coconut, palm oil and pork fat). Vietnamese use fat too. Vegetables yes, vegan - no! Some fish and some meat and some fat too.

    I am not claiming that their diet is bad, just not as good as it could have been had they been able to afford more fish, meat and fat. I think they would have been healthier, taller and physically stronger.

    jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
    My friend often goes days eating only one food....rice.(no vegetables or fish,just rice)I don't know how much healthier he could be when at the age of 91 he still has greater athletic ability,reflexes,hand eye coordination, and eyesight than most 21 yr olds.Granted he is small and not very muscular.I could not have used him on my football team,but he would be great as a speed or endurance athlete.
    DoloresTeresa responded:
    Dr. Mirkin mentions something called Neu 5c which is found in red meat but not fish or poultry. It is supposed to be incompatible with proteins that are matched to human requirements.

    How our ancient ancestors managed, upon coming down from the trees, to acquire large quantities of meat remains a mystery.

    Most of us will eat what is at hand. (Probably the reason for our killing ourselves with fast food) Even modern hunter gatherers are not successful every time they set out to hunt, but only once every few times. I saw a film once of native hunters somewhere on a monkey hunt. I think they got about 8 monkeys for the whole tribe and I was under the impression that this hunting foray was a big deal. Not very frequent. It didn't look like there was a lot of meat on a monkey.

    But the problem with us isn't the same as with our paleolithic ancestors. Nature is happy if we live to reproduce and raise children who become old enough to reproduce. Looking at the diets of most people in the West, you can see that just about any old diet with enough calories will do. However, we all want to live much longer--long enough to see our great grandchildren and retire to a water front home in Florida and sit on our rockers or play shuffle board at the senior center and complain we don't hear from our kids enough. Outside the ken of our ancient ancestors, none of whose fossil remains have been found to be older than fifty. Heck, nowadays you could reach fifty on a diet of potato chips and twinkies.


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