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    DoloresTeresa posted:
    Dr. E said that studies showed that diet and meds lowered cholesterol more than diet alone or a moderate diet plus drugs. So one cannot say that in every case diet does the trick. While Esselstyn's patients and those star McDougallers certainily seem to have regained their health, one can not absolutely attribute it to diet since meds were often used.

    My brother was on statins and blood pressure meds before he went on a plant based diet and his cholesterol went very low. It went up when he was on a plant based diet and the doctor took him off the statins. Not by very much, but over 150.

    There was a study in the New England Journal of Medicine which used massive doses of statins which lowered the cholesterol but one fourth of the patients either had a coronary event or died within 2.5 years.

    So it wonders me if I should change my almost 100% plant based diet at all as long as I have to take a satin anyway.

    And then there are those like the 97 year old patient I recently heard of whose cholesterol is over 260 who has high LDL but has managed to make it to 97. How many of us are using one diet or another when all along there might be no need and we would be healthy no matter what we did?

    jc3737 responded:
    You are going to have to use your own intuition to make a choice,but first gather all the information you can.Take a look at the ways to make LDL particles larger....Dr Sinatra and DR W Davis.(track your plaque).
    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    don't have a good feeling about dr. sinatra's advice but will look into it more carefully. dr. davis uses very low carb. it looks to me like he says oils mean larger ldl and carbs produce small dense particles but he seems to lump whole foods together with refined carbs.

    jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    Dr Davis does not use low carb unless he has changed his mind since I read his book.He recommend a plant based diet but is not real strict and advocates some balance.(much like your diet)He deals with specific ways to enlarge the small LDL particles that do the damage to the heart and blood vessels.

    Dr Sinatra uses CoQ10 a good bit and other supplements like magnesium,fish oil,D ribose,etc.
    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    He only gives so much information unless you sign up.m However, from what I read he is a fan of Cordain and his paleo diet. (Which the PrimitiveNutrition guy talks about in his videos)

    While it is true that primitive people did not farm grains, or anything else, it is unlikely that when they finally did start to farm that they would have planted a crop that they were not familiar with and did not eat when they could find it.

    He does mention the need for animal foods because of B12, K2 and omega threes. I believe you can get omega threes from sources other than animals. There are omnivores who are deficient in B12 so eating animals is evidently no guarantee that your B12 will be sufficient unless you choose to eat certain animals or fish. Chicken for instance, which many people have switched to has very little B12. I have to investigate K2. If the number of nutrients keeps increasing that need to be taken by supplement (for Fuhrman it is DHA and B12 and maybe iodine and zinc) then it seems that you should eat the animal.)

    Yet, people who eat plenty of meat also get fat, get diabetes and clogged arteries and get strokes. Davis seems to think it is the wheat that is causing all the problems. And I would like to read about enlarging LDL particles so I guess I am going to have to find a copy of his book somewhere.

    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    Jc, I found a sample of track your plaque on the net and if this isn't low carb I don't know what is. While he does recommend lots of vegetables, he also recommends lots of meat, 2 servings of dairy, eggs, oils with every meal and nuts and in one place says do not eat wheat, white and red potatoes, brown and white rice. Elsewhere he says to limit so it is hard to know exactly what he means. His sample menu is certainly very low carb and high fat and meat and the starchiest thing on the menu is spaghetti squash. Also the kinds and amounts of fruit are limited but McDougall also limits fruit in his MWL plan.

    I do not see how eating all that fat, meat, eggs and dairy will reverse plaque build up.

    jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    He tells a very different strory in his book "Track Your Plaque".But Davis is more about the supplements than diet (and he does not sell supplements.)In his book he advocates a largely plant based diet but also calls for some balance.It looks like he has changed his mind a great deal diet since he wrote his book.

    some of the supplements recommended:

    Flax seed
    fish oil
    Vit K2
    vit D3

    What approach have you decided on?What changes have you made?
    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    What approach have I decided on? I am going to be very strict with the plant based diet, take the B12 and maybe D3 and look into K2. Eliminate all animal food and fats except the fat in oatmeal, corn, and whole grains. Not even nuts. No cheating. And if I have another heart attack and survive, I am going to eat anything I damn well please.

    jc3737 replied to DoloresTeresa's response:
    It worked for Dr Esselstyn's patients and I hope it works as well for you.Keep us posted.


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