Diet Debate

Hi Heretic,

Glad to see you around and kicking.

Being vegan does not describe my program. Studies show that most vegetarians eat few vegetables. They cut out meat and maybe dairy, and replace it with more white flour, oil, sugar, honey, highly processed salty veggie burgers, etc. Their diets can be just about as awful as the SAD (Standard American Diet.)

By the way, you failed to mention that H Jay Dinshah diedin 2000, 12 years ago, although he was only 67 years old. He wrote several books, including "Health can be harmless", suggesting he was an ethical vegan, not eating meat for the environment. I did not check what his diet was.

What's the average lifespan of people on your diet? What's any information (besides cholesterol levels) of people on your diet? Recall our previous discussions suggesting that a cholesterol level of 150, while on your diet, is not necessarily comforting, since Masai children 10 years old also have similar low cholesterol levels, but have fibrosis, advanced atherosclerosis.

Best regards, EngineerGuy

Hi EngineerGuy,

Re: Masai

We have talked about that incessantly but since you are coming back to it, I will too.

You can't twist the facts portraying the data as if all Masai were supposed to have as much placque as Americans if not more but just happen not to have heart attacks because they die too early or because they exercise physically and thus are protected.

If you think early death is masking Masai heart attacks tell this to your American friends in the vegan forums who experienced MI in the ri 40-ties. If you believe that physical exercizing protects MAsai against MI think about how did Jim Fixx, the inventor of jogging die!

Masai don't generally suffer from heart disease and out of two authopsies studies performed in the 70-ties one (#2) found fibrous lesions though none of the autopsied cadavers died of heart disease and the other study (#1) found none.

The Masai sample #2 was simply a freak case, the special case of sick patients. In addition the period of the study #2 (1970-ties) was the period of drought. They were probably fed American wheat, courtesy of the US governement international aid program.

I will reiterate it:

- traditional high fat low carb Masai diet is not causing heart disease and never did! Masai don't die of heart attacks - Americans, East Indians and other high carb fed nations do!

Heretic

Hi Heretic,

Dr. Mann made the conclusions, not me, where you said I "cannot twist the facts."

As we all recall, Dr. Mann proposed, in the 1970's, that the Masai were a people eating a high fat, high cholesterol diet, without heart disease. He was part of the group disputing the affect of cholesterol in heart disease.

As you state, there was a study (you call #1), where 10 Masai hearts were autopsied in a tent, in the African bush. The study said it was run in challenging conditions. But, they saw no arterial blockages. That's support for Dr. Mann and Heretic.

Then study #2 was run, which was a larger study by Dr. Mann himself, to settle the question once and for all. He had hearts sent to Vanderbuilt University for careful autopsy, for 50 consecutive male Masai deaths.

As you mention, in the 6-10 year old group, there was already fibrosis found, which is advanced damage to the artery wall (mentioned in the article, not the abstract).

Re: "You can't twist the facts portraying the data as if all Masai were supposed to have as much placque as Americans if not more but just happen not to have heart attacks because they die too early or because they exercise physically and thus are protected."

Read the abstract. That was Dr. Mann's conclusion, not mine.

Re: "The Masai sample #2 was simply a freak case, the special case of sick patients. ... They were probably fed American wheat, courtesy of the US governement international aid program."

Again, you are disputing Dr. Mann's conclusions, not mine. The wheat thing you speculate, was not mentioned by Dr. Mann, nor that his study was simply a freak case.

The abstract:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/1/26

American Journal of Epidemiology Vol. 95, No. 1: 26-37
Copyright ? 1972 by The Johns Hopkins University School of Hygiene and Public Health
research-article

ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI1
GEORGE V. MANN, ANNE SPOERRY, MARGARETE GARY and DEBRA JARASHOW

Mann, G. V. (Vanderbilt Univ. School of Medicine, Nashville, Tenn. 37203), A. Spoerry, M. Gray, and D. Jarashow.

Atherosclerosis in the Masai. Am J Epidemiol 95: 26—37, 1972.

—The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious.

atherosclerosis; autopsy; cholesterol; coronary artery disease; diet; exercise

1 From the Nutrition Division, vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee 37203 (G. V. Mann and D. Jarashow), and the Aftrican Medical and Research Foundation, Nairobi (A. Spoerry and M. Gray). Reprint requests to Dr. Mann.

Dr. Mann is the person who started the Masai as a group without heart disease, with a high fat, high cholesterol diet. It is to his credit that he published his study that disproved his original thesis.

Best regards, EngineerGuy