Diet Debate
We debate the various types of diets.
High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacks
EngineerGuy posted:
Hi folks,
In a study of 43,000 Swedish women, following them for 16 years, those eating fewer carbs and more protein, had more heart attacks.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T120714002753.htm
Now, if it were actually true that reducing carbs was good, this probably would not happen.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
In a study of 43,000 Swedish women, following them for 16 years, those eating fewer carbs and more protein, had more heart attacks.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T120714002753.htm
Now, if it were actually true that reducing carbs was good, this probably would not happen.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
9 Replies |Watch This Discussion | Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksHi folks,<br /> <br />In a study of 43,000 Swedish women, following them for 16 years, those eating fewer carbs and more protein, had more heart attacks.<br /> <br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T120714002753.htm">http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T120714002753.htm</a> <br /> <br />Now, if it were actually true that reducing carbs was good, this probably would not happen.<br /> <br />Best regards, EngineerGuy
Tomato05 responded:
Wonder what role exercise maybe played. Perhaps the higher carb eaters also exercised more.
E.g. when I run a lot, I have to increase my carbs not by choice but simply because I have to, or I don't have enough fuel for a long run.
The exercise is probably strengthening my heart, not the carbs.
E.g. when I run a lot, I have to increase my carbs not by choice but simply because I have to, or I don't have enough fuel for a long run.
The exercise is probably strengthening my heart, not the carbs.
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksWonder what role exercise maybe played. Perhaps the higher carb eaters also exercised more.<br /><br />E.g. when I run a lot, I have to increase my carbs not by choice but simply because I have to, or I don't have enough fuel for a long run.<br /><br />The exercise is probably strengthening my heart, not the carbs.
EngineerGuy replied to Tomato05's response:
Hi Tomato,
Good to see you around!
Re: "
The exercise is probably strengthening my heart, not the carbs."
These are 43,000 Swedish women. The study gets the result of an average person, and really does not measure the results of a very few untypical exercise enthusiasts. Just guessing, when they increased their carbs, it was more likely to enjoy a doughnut, rather than to help them run 5 miles.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
Good to see you around!
Re: "
The exercise is probably strengthening my heart, not the carbs."
These are 43,000 Swedish women. The study gets the result of an average person, and really does not measure the results of a very few untypical exercise enthusiasts. Just guessing, when they increased their carbs, it was more likely to enjoy a doughnut, rather than to help them run 5 miles.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksHi Tomato,<br /> <br />Good to see you around!<br /> <br />Re: "<br />The exercise is probably strengthening my heart, not the carbs."<br /> <br />These are 43,000 Swedish women. The study gets the result of an average person, and really does not measure the results of a very few untypical exercise enthusiasts. Just guessing, when they increased their carbs, it was more likely to enjoy a doughnut, rather than to help them run 5 miles.<br /> <br />Best regards, EngineerGuy
EngineerGuy responded:
Hi Tomato,
Yes, it would be interesting to see the affect or role of exercise, and whether exercise differed between the groups.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
Yes, it would be interesting to see the affect or role of exercise, and whether exercise differed between the groups.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksHi Tomato,<br /> <br />Yes, it would be interesting to see the affect or role of exercise, and whether exercise differed between the groups.<br /> <br />Best regards, EngineerGuy
Heretk replied to EngineerGuy's response:
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacks<a rel="nofollow" href="http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/reading-the-scientific-literature-a-guide-to-flawed-studies/">http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/reading-the-scientific-literature-a-guide-to-flawed-studies/</a>
Heretk responded:
It wasn't a low carb diet and it was not a high fat diet. The statistical variability spans from medium fat high carb low protein to medium fat medium carb medium protein diet.
It does not compare a low fat low protein high carbohydrate diet like those you are - sorry - were advocating, to a high fat medium protein low carb diet (that I like recommending).
Also, it was based on questionaire filled and filled out from memory so statistical error must be huge.
It does not compare a low fat low protein high carbohydrate diet like those you are - sorry - were advocating, to a high fat medium protein low carb diet (that I like recommending).
Also, it was based on questionaire filled and filled out from memory so statistical error must be huge.
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksIt wasn't a low carb diet and it was not a high fat diet. The statistical variability spans from medium fat high carb low protein to medium fat medium carb medium protein diet. <br /><br />It does not compare a low fat low protein high carbohydrate diet like those you are - sorry - were advocating, to a high fat medium protein low carb diet (that I like recommending).<br /><br /> Also, it was based on questionaire filled and filled out from memory so statistical error must be huge.
More serious discussion of that study is contained in the following blog articles:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-it-time-to-retire-the-low-carb-diet-fad/
http://rawfoodsos.com/2012/07/01/bad-science-strikes-again/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-it-time-to-retire-the-low-carb-diet-fad/
http://rawfoodsos.com/2012/07/01/bad-science-strikes-again/
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksMore serious discussion of that study is contained in the following blog articles:<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-it-time-to-retire-the-low-carb-diet-fad/">http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-it-time-to-retire-the-low-carb-diet-fad/</a> <br /><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://rawfoodsos.com/2012/07/01/bad-science-strikes-again/">http://rawfoodsos.com/2012/07/01/bad-science-strikes-again/</a>
Quote from the first link:
In 2010, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition published a paper looking directly at dairy fat and myocardial infarction among some of the same northern Swedes used in last week's study. The results? Women with high intakes of dairy fat — confirmed both by food-frequency questionnaires and ruminant-milk-fat biomarkers — were less likely to suffer from a first heart attack than their milk-minimizing counterparts. (Cheese and fermented dairy products looked particularly heart-protective.) And just in case you think that one was a fluke, a 2004 study examining the same Swedish population found dairy fat to be negatively associated with cardiovascular risk factors, with zero indication that full-fat milk products contribute to heart attacks. Want more? Yet another study (PDF), again based on those fat-loving northern Swedes, found dairy fat to be beautifully protective against strokes — especially in women. So much for all that "artery clogging" hoopla!
In 2010, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition published a paper looking directly at dairy fat and myocardial infarction among some of the same northern Swedes used in last week's study. The results? Women with high intakes of dairy fat — confirmed both by food-frequency questionnaires and ruminant-milk-fat biomarkers — were less likely to suffer from a first heart attack than their milk-minimizing counterparts. (Cheese and fermented dairy products looked particularly heart-protective.) And just in case you think that one was a fluke, a 2004 study examining the same Swedish population found dairy fat to be negatively associated with cardiovascular risk factors, with zero indication that full-fat milk products contribute to heart attacks. Want more? Yet another study (PDF), again based on those fat-loving northern Swedes, found dairy fat to be beautifully protective against strokes — especially in women. So much for all that "artery clogging" hoopla!
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksQuote from the first link: <br /><br /><i>In 2010, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ajcn.org/content/92/1/194.full">published a paper</a> looking directly at dairy fat and myocardial infarction among some of the same northern Swedes used in last week's study. The results? Women with high intakes of dairy fat — confirmed both by food-frequency questionnaires and ruminant-milk-fat biomarkers — were less likely to suffer from a first heart attack than their milk-minimizing counterparts. (Cheese and fermented dairy products looked particularly heart-protective.) And just in case you think that one was a fluke, <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15035691">a 2004 study</a> examining the same Swedish population found dairy fat to be negatively associated with cardiovascular risk factors, with zero indication that full-fat milk products contribute to heart attacks. Want more? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-8-21.pdf">Yet another study</a> (PDF), again based on those fat-loving northern Swedes, found dairy fat to be beautifully protective against strokes — especially in women. </i><i>So much for all that "artery clogging" hoopla!</i>
More comments about that Swedish study:
http://barrygroves.blogspot.ca/2012/06/study-finds-that-carbs-prevent-energy.html
Barry Groves said...Hi Ian
his study is quite ridiculous, and the Express's coverage of it, scandalously misleading. Here's why
1. The participants filled in a questionnaire about their diet just once 12 years before the follow-up.
2. The hazard ratios (harm vs benefit are so close to 1.0 that the result is not statistically significant.
3. The 'harm' is only increased for high protein intake, but a proper low-carb diet is NOT high protein, it is bigh fat.
4. Even so, the study's figures allow us to calculate that if you are a woman between 30 and 50 your chance of NOT dying from a heart attack in the next 12 years if you eat their low-carb, high-protein is 99.58%, but if you eat low protein high carb (which they say is healthier, you can increase your chance to 99.87%. That's an increase of a whole 0.28%!!!
5. Lastly, according to a previous paper from the same group they excluded anyone with any kind of disease, which means they have obviously excluded diabetics - the people who most benefit from a low-carb diet!
The whole thing is nonsense.
Barry Groves
June 28, 2012 8:50 PM
http://barrygroves.blogspot.ca/2012/06/study-finds-that-carbs-prevent-energy.html
Barry Groves said...Hi Ian
his study is quite ridiculous, and the Express's coverage of it, scandalously misleading. Here's why
1. The participants filled in a questionnaire about their diet just once 12 years before the follow-up.
2. The hazard ratios (harm vs benefit are so close to 1.0 that the result is not statistically significant.
3. The 'harm' is only increased for high protein intake, but a proper low-carb diet is NOT high protein, it is bigh fat.
4. Even so, the study's figures allow us to calculate that if you are a woman between 30 and 50 your chance of NOT dying from a heart attack in the next 12 years if you eat their low-carb, high-protein is 99.58%, but if you eat low protein high carb (which they say is healthier, you can increase your chance to 99.87%. That's an increase of a whole 0.28%!!!
5. Lastly, according to a previous paper from the same group they excluded anyone with any kind of disease, which means they have obviously excluded diabetics - the people who most benefit from a low-carb diet!
The whole thing is nonsense.
Barry Groves
June 28, 2012 8:50 PM
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksMore comments about that Swedish study:<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://barrygroves.blogspot.ca/2012/06/study-finds-that-carbs-prevent-energy.html">http://barrygroves.blogspot.ca/2012/06/study-finds-that-carbs-prevent-energy.html</a> <br /><br /><i><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/00730808394366686959">Barry Groves</a> said...</i><i>Hi Ian<br /><br />his study is quite ridiculous, and the Express's coverage of it, scandalously misleading. Here's why<br /><br />1. The participants filled in a questionnaire about their diet just once 12 years before the follow-up. <br /><br />2. The hazard ratios (harm vs benefit are so close to 1.0 that the result is not statistically significant.<br /><br />3. The 'harm' is only increased for high protein intake, but a proper low-carb diet is NOT high protein, it is bigh fat. <br /><br />4. Even so, the study's figures allow us to calculate that if you are a woman between 30 and 50 your chance of <b>NOT dying from a heart attack</b> in the next 12 years if you eat their low-carb, high-protein is 99.58%, but if you eat low protein high carb (which they say is healthier, you can increase your chance to 99.87%. That's an increase of a whole 0.28%!!!<br /><br />5. Lastly, according to a previous paper from the same group they excluded anyone with any kind of disease, which means they have obviously excluded diabetics - the people who most benefit from a low-carb diet!<br />The whole thing is nonsense.<br />Barry Groves</i><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://barrygroves.blogspot.com/2012/06/study-finds-that-carbs-prevent-energy.html?showComment=1340913009154#c8664973724427779597"><i>June 28, 2012 8:50 PM</i></a>
EngineerGuy replied to Heretk's response:
Hi Heretic,
Check into Dr. Pekka Pushka, who has lead the effort in Finland. In the 1970's, Finland had the highest heart disease rate in the world. Today, they have lowered their heart disease rate by 75%. They are doing something right. And most of what they are doing is replacing whole milk with low fat and non-fat, working to reduce saturated fat content in manufactured foods, replace saturated fat with vegetable oil, cutting out trans fats, etc.
This is reality, and great results.
Re: "which means they have obviously excluded diabetics - the people who most benefit from a low-carb diet!" --Barry Groves
Obviously Barry Groves is not aware of the spectacular, published, results at the Pritikin Center, curing diabetes with a high carb low fat, mostly vegetable diet.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
Check into Dr. Pekka Pushka, who has lead the effort in Finland. In the 1970's, Finland had the highest heart disease rate in the world. Today, they have lowered their heart disease rate by 75%. They are doing something right. And most of what they are doing is replacing whole milk with low fat and non-fat, working to reduce saturated fat content in manufactured foods, replace saturated fat with vegetable oil, cutting out trans fats, etc.
This is reality, and great results.
Re: "which means they have obviously excluded diabetics - the people who most benefit from a low-carb diet!" --Barry Groves
Obviously Barry Groves is not aware of the spectacular, published, results at the Pritikin Center, curing diabetes with a high carb low fat, mostly vegetable diet.
Best regards, EngineerGuy
Report This| Share this:High Protein - low Carb diet INCREASES heart attacksHi Heretic,<br /> <br />Check into Dr. Pekka Pushka, who has lead the effort in Finland. In the 1970's, Finland had the highest heart disease rate in the world. Today, they have lowered their heart disease rate by 75%. They are doing something right. And most of what they are doing is replacing whole milk with low fat and non-fat, working to reduce saturated fat content in manufactured foods, replace saturated fat with vegetable oil, cutting out trans fats, etc.<br /> <br />This is reality, and great results.<br /> <br />Re: "<i>which means they have obviously excluded diabetics - the people who most benefit from a low-carb diet!" --Barry Groves</i><br /><i></i> <br />Obviously Barry Groves is not aware of the spectacular, published, results at the Pritikin Center, curing diabetes with a high carb low fat, mostly vegetable diet.<br /> <br />Best regards, EngineerGuy
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