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    Dr Fuhrman's reply
    jc3737 posted:
    Here is Dr Fuhrman's reply to the criticism on the McDougall board.Personally, I think the tension between the two camps is healthy.There are a number of important issues (differences in the two approaches)that need to be resolved.

    Are nuts healthy and can a low fat fat diet be dangerous if it is too low fat?Are potatoes healthy of harmful?Is the ANDI scale valid?Do we need a high concentration of foods high on the scale...vegetables, instead of starches?Is salt a scapegoat or is it really unhealthy?

    These are important differences that need to be resolved by looking at research and conducting more studies.The emphasis on agreement between the two diets is not a good thing....a good thing would be to find out who is right issue by I favor debate instead of agreement.
    heretk responded:
    Dr. Fuhrman is 100% right I think, that potatoes are harmful - for diabetics and people with metabolic syndrome! They are also totally harmless for healthy people without the metabolic syndrome!

    There were studies showing the effect of high starch consumption for some but not all people. They used the term high responders and low responders rather than the metabolic syndrome, but the results basically shows the above effect.

    jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
    Potatoes are loaded with tons of nutrients and potassium which is great for anyone with elevated blood pressure.My FBG was once in the 130s and now its in the mid 70s.The more starch I added the lower it went.

    My last fasting insulin level was a 2 which is considered too low....that was 3 yrs ago when I was eating tons of nuts and peanut butter.I'm going to have it checked again in december.I don't eat the nuts now (other than one almond) because they cause me digestion problems.

    When you look at studies involving starch and potatoes in particular they never use plain whole potatoes....its always french fries or potatoes loaded with butter.And starch gets tainted because they don't compare the type of pure whole grain carbs that Dr Fuhrman and McDougall recommend.

    Future studies are going to have to specifically compare those on the various diets,Fuhrman,McDougall,Atkins,Optimal.Paleo,low carb....

    I guess the only proven diet (actual healthy trim long lived cultures) would be the McDougall starch diet which is from societies in Asia and other parts of the world.I know it may be the overall lifestyle but they do eat a diet of almost total starch.
    engineerguy replied to jc3737's response:
    Hi jc,

    Hi Heretic,

    Some of my thoughts, simply for your consideration...

    A suggestion to try... if nuts give you heartburn, try them with salads or even fruit. But it is easy to eat too many nuts. I am not saying we have to eat lots of nuts and seeds. If you are happier limiting them, that's best.

    I have to weigh out my foods for a few days, to see how many calories I get, and so forth, but I guess I get 600 calories of nuts and seeds most days. I am no longer on a low fat diet.

    I think Fuhrman does villify white potatoes too much. I think they are fine, occasionally. I no longer eat 7 pounds a week, but we eat them occasionally. We all have different metabolisms.

    Heretic, if you are pursuing a ketogenic diet, yes, potatoes are not at all what you want. Question - do you think pH paper would work on urine? I suppose it should. Having alkaline urine is very beneficial, I believe. Most people have acidic urine. It might be interesting to test one's self.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
    EG,Its important to figure out who is right issue by issue.Here is my opinion as of today....Fuhrman is right about sodium(not much doubt about that in my mind).He is probably right about the need for lots of greens and its a good idea to have some of them raw.But the owerwhelming evidence is that potatoes are not only healthy but very healthy....I have anywhere from 3-6 every day....the added potassium has lowered my blood pressure and even lowered my fasting blood glucose and A1C.I get enough vitamin C just from potatoes alone.The research on potassium and stroke is powerful....added potassium cuts the risk of stroke significantly even if the blood pressure does not drop....that suggests a benefit of potassium beyond the lowering of blood pressure.Also the more potatoes I eat the better my digestion is.

    I would go so far as to say that potatoes may rival leafy greens like Kale and Mustard greens when it comes to health benefits.

    I beleive that as Fuhrman researches further he will completely reverse his opinion on potatoes....there are just too many healthy,long lived societies that thrive on potatoes for any research to ignore for very long.

    Corect me if i'm wrong but doesn't a vegan diet keeps urine pH lower than a diet of animal products.
    jc3737 replied to jc3737's response:
    take a look
    engineerguy responded:
    Hi jc,

    Thanks for this post. I had seen earlier posts, and it was quite depressing, to see the absurd rancor that some people had, about DIET. This post is an upswing, and I thank you. Thank heavens the nation can at least deal with politics in a thoughtful civilized manner. Oh - what's wrong with me - I guess we can't. Both parties flunk for putting party above nation. But I digress.

    I've seen posts on both Fuhrman and McDougall sites, by people who are doing better on one, than the other diet. I am familial type B lipid profile. I have high LDL, mostly the small dense LDL - the worst kind. And low HDL, mostly the small dense HDL, which is the only bad kind of HDL. I definitely do better on the Fuhrman program, than when I emphasized starches for calories, and had no nuts & seeds, on the Pritikin diet. I was identical to McDougall, except I ate sourdough bread, not realizing it made my diet high in salt. Ouch. I was lactose intolerant, so I was dairy free, so that's another item in agreement with McDougall.

    Anyway, both diets are clearly excellent. If you attend a McDougall health center, you eat pretty much identically with Fuhrman, except McDougall has no nuts & seeds. Fuhrman does believe the McDougall diet, for some people, can lead to low omega 3, with serious problems.

    I read Dr. McDougall's support for his no vitamin D recommendation, and his references better support Dr. Fuhrman's recommendation, of getting blood tested, and supplementing, if necessary, to reach 35 to 55.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
    vit D,omega3.....Thats why I supplement with D (Fuhrmans gentle care)and take fish oil daiy.It may turn out to be unnecessary but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
    engineerguy replied to jc3737's response:
    Hi jc,

    Re:"Corect me if i'm wrong but doesn't a vegan diet keeps urine pH lower than a diet of animal products."

    Lower pH (as I work it out in my head) is alkaline, which is good, as in an alkaline diet. Yes, animal products make the urine acidic, and deplete calcium out of the bones, to help neutralize the body.

    By the way, another major issue with salt is that a high sodium diet takes calcium out of the body. This is a fairly recent discovery, around year 2000.

    I'll bet you have an excellent alkaline diet.

    Oh, and if you are having good results with potatoes, I agree with you. The only way to improve would be to have a variety of grains. The skins, by the way, contain a toxin called solanine. In Ireland, where they ate mostly potatoes, they could get potato poisoning. Google solanine. It is not clear whether we should worry about solanine toxicity.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
    EG,Thanks for the warning...I will look into it.
    jc3737 replied to jc3737's response:
    heretk replied to engineerguy's response:
    Re: meat

    EngineerGuy, you are quite selective in your list of acidic-forming food (i.e. meat). Let me add to it (note I am not sure how good that source is but it seem slightly more complete):


    Foods that have a Moderate to Strong Acid-Forming Effect[blockquote>Alcohol
    Soft drinks (pop)
    White sugar
    Refined Salt
    Artificial sweeteners
    Antibiotics (and most drugs)
    White flour products (including pasta)
    White vinegar
    Most boxed cereals
    Most beans
    Flesh meats
    Most types of bread

    jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
    Don't we need some acid forming foods?If the body gets too alkaline will that promote pathogens like candida overgrowth that would normally be held in check by stomach acid.Or does food even affect stomach acid?

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