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    DNA methylation reduced by green leafy vegetables; Reduce Lung Cancer
    engineerguy posted:
    Hi folks,

    The new science of Epigenetics is learning some amazing things.

    DNA Methylation is the way DNA is programmed to become differentiated cells, within the body. The sperm and egg have DNA that is not methylated. When a cell becomes a pancreas cell (or any other kind of cell), the genes that should not be expressed, become methylated, which deactivates the undesired gene, and leaving the desired genes for the pancreas activity.

    But during our life, additional, undesirable methylation can occur. Recall Dr. Dean Ornish' study, showing that healthy diet upregulates good genes, and down regulates bad genes, concerning prostate cancer.

    One study showed that obese rats had more obese children, compared to normal weight rat parents. It is believed that the DNA of the obese rats had increased methylation, which was inherited by the rat kids. In this case, DNA methylation is DNA damage. (I do not have a reference for this study.)

    This is a very recent non-technical explanation about vegetables helping to prevent cancer.
    July 8, 2012

    This is a technical paper working to predict lung cancer for smokers, based on the methylation of 8 genes that suppress lung cancer. If the gene is methylated, it cannot do it's job, and the smoker is likely to get lung cancer. The paper showed that folks who ate veggies, had less methylation of these good genes. Eating more meat and saturated fat also showed a negative affect, as expected from prior research, but the affect was not statistically significant.
    Cancer Research Dec 15, 2012
    Multivitamins, Folate, and Green Vegetables Protect against Gene Promoter Methylation in the Aerodigestive Tract of Smokers
    Christine A. Stidley1,

    This study has identified two dietary variables, leafy green vegetables and folate, along with multivitamin use that could help reduce the incidence of lung cancer by reducing the induction of methylation in the aerodigestive tract of smokers.

    These are technical papers which would help understanding of the lung cancer paper. I am only beginning to begin to understand this. It is amazing what science is starting to learn.

    Chromatin remodelling

    DNA Methylation

    The Role of Methylation in Gene Expression

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    dteresa responded:
    What do you think of the assertion of McDougall and others that taking vitamins is actually detrimental because the quantities might be such that they could take up more room in the cell and thus block other nutrients necessary for cell health? For some vitamins, it has been shown that taking them, at least in large quantities, provokes the very illness they are said to prevent.

    engineerguy replied to dteresa's response:
    Hi Dolores,

    I love Dr. McDougall, his enthusiasm and drive. However his advice not to take any supplements, except for B12 if vegan, is much too simplistic, and bad advice.

    When I was 58, I learned at the Pritikin Center, that sunlight was very healthful, to make vitamin D. I realized that I got no sunlight. So, I started running 4 miles every day outside at noon. After 2 years of this, I got my bones DEXA tested, and was shocked to find my hips were at the bottom of osteopenia, almost to osteoporosis. My spine was at the top of osteopenia, almost in the normal range. I also got my vitamin D tested, for the first time in my life, in June (lots of sunlight). I was severely deficient in D, with a reading of 16, which is well correlated with osteoporisis, heart disease, diabetes, depression, and cancer. Furthermore, my eye doctor told me I had mild cataracts. My dermatologist told me I had skin tags, which are sometimes pre-cancerous, so he squirted liquid nitrogen on them in about 30 seconds, and charged my insurance $200. So, I had plenty of UV to give me skin tags and cataracts, but not enough UV to give me adequate vitamin D.

    If I followed Dr. McDougall's advice, I never would have known I was deficient in D, in spite of getting lots of sunlight. This would have been very serious.

    Follow up with the cataracts: The doctor said most doctors would recommend having them removed, but he said to just watch them. That was the last day I ever went into sunlight without dark wrap around sunglasses. The next year the doctor did not mention them. Because they went away.

    Dr. Fuhrman and Dr. McDougall agree that several vitamins, such as folic acid, vitamin A from Palmitate, and beta carotene, are harmful. Most physicians agree that Omega 3 supplements (fish oil or algae oil) are very valuable, as well as Vitamin D. It is best to get your vitamin D blood level checked (the next time you check your cholesterol). Ideal blood level is 35 to 55. Many people need about 2000 IU of D3 to have this ideal level. A few people need no supplement, and a few people need much more.

    To make a long story short, Dr. Fuhrman offers a "Mens Health" and "Womens Health" vitamin, formulated for people on his diet. I take the Mens Health. These vitamins have no folic acid, no vitamin A, etc, as these are plentiful and healthful in the diet, and harmful in the form in supplements. His discussion on Mens vitamins (there is another sheet on Womens vitamins)

    So, yes, proper supplements are very helpful, in my opinion. And, we are not all the same. Iron is no longer in multivitamins, as of years ago. Iron is toxic in excess, and any iron supplements is too much for most people (except menstruating women). However, if you have ever been diagnosed as anemic, you probably need supplements, and in a dose that diet cannot provide.

    So, to answer your question, I would agree with Dr. McDougall that the way most people take vitamins, is not healthful, but I disagree with Dr. McDougall on his harmful advice not to take any supplements except B12 for vegans. I myself have been harmed by not taking Vitamin D, for I have no idea how many years, that I was D deficient.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    heretk responded:
    Yes, eating vegetables and all that. But there may be other factors that may make the role of vegetables coincidental not causual. For example people who eat vegetables may also follow healthier lifestyle in general and eat less sugar and less other junk carbs.

    The first link you posted mentions the role of histones (but does not deal with nutrition). A year ago I committed a small article about histones and in that context, there seems to be a link with wheat (health-negative) and ketone bodies (health-positive).

    Neither your second nor third links mention nutrition.

    Stan (Heretic)

    Happy (belated) Winter Solstice and best New Year!
    heretk replied to heretk's response:
    The original paper you linked (link number 2) is interesting but they do not publish the full dietary variables so it is hard to comment. Since the effect of leafy vegetables (risk 0.83) and folate are marginal, it is possible that it may be a coincidental effect of something else that is having a stronger impact, like less sugar or less of the bad vegetable polyunsaturated fats, or something else entirely.

    Interstingly the effect of multivitamin supplementation was much stronger (0.57) than the vegetables!

    BTW - in my previous message I miscounted enumeration of your links, when I refered to your first link it should instead read "third", second as "fourth" and third as "fifth". Sorry.

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