Diet Debate

H, I am surprised at you. You seem testy lately. For the second time you accused me of being disparaging when I was reporting exactly what was said in a video since I did not think it was likely that many would sit through it. So I reported the highlights. I reported his good results along with what I consider his bad results. So anyone reading it can come to his own conclusions. And speculate as you have done in some posts of yours that I have read.

Neither my heart attack nor your lack thereof is scientific proof of anything. My own blood sugar this morning was 82 and as you know I am not on meds and have been diabetic for more than 20 years. So far on low carb groups, I have not read of anyone being diabetic that long who has not been on meds for that length of time and has low blood sugars. Which doesn't mean they aren't there--just that I am unaware of them. I am predicting however that Mr. Moore is making himself insulin resistant. He probably already is.

As to your own diet. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Jimmy Moore's diet, by his own admission, was broke. We will see now if he fixes it. For myself, are the condition of diabetic arteries different? Is there something that happens once one has diabetes that makes heart disease more likely no matter what the diet? Or is it just diet (and exercise). And I honestly reported my heart attack so anyone could judge my own diet. Which you have done. And which I do not consider disparaging. Did you mean it to be?

And most of us know people who eat the most horrendous diets, which would meet neither your criteria of healthful nor mine, who also smoke drink and run around with loose women yet remain perfectly healthy well into their nineties. I don't think any diet can compete with really good genes.

Lighten up. You are one of my favorite people of all time. I am sorry I offended you.

Dolores

Sorry Dolores, I didn't mean to offend you, my impression was that you were pandering to the tastes of the people on that forum rather than writing truly impartially. It was the tone not the contents which edged me a little bit. I really appreciate a discussion with you and am looking forward to a very very long continuation of our dialog!

I decided to speak out when I saw your posts there trying to please other people on that forum that probably deserve to be ignored. It's a trap. It will not serve you.

I have seen it in the communist Eastern Europe where some really bright writers and intellectuals got sucked-in, trying to conform to, placate and please some brutal bullies in the establishment, rather than simply tell such goons to f..k off.

Best regards,
Stan

H, although you are a heretic and I am a member of the choir, you do not offend me. While you think I am trying to please others you might consider that so far, I really do think eating plants and low fat is the way to go FOR ME and that eating very high fat and high animal protein might be dangerous. I have to laugh because the comment was made "on that other group" that perhaps I hang around you guys too much (and am in bad company). Others over there have commented that I do not seem very convinced of the superiority of starched based diets.

So with my own inimitable ability to unintentionally raise the hackles of just about everyone in every camp, I will continue to listen to and read about things that pertain to my own health and to ask questions. My diet is not my religion. But lately I think I should carry around some internet equivalent of a leper bell to warn people that I am coming.

Fondly,
Dolores

Hi Heretic,

Re "I recommend to seriously consider a possibility that Jimmy Moore's approach, albeit not perfect the first time around, may have some validity for him and for other diabetics! At least he is trying, makes his own tests and takes corrective action based on the outcomes. This is a true scientific approach, in a stark contrast to Dr. McDougall whose idea of "science" is to blast his own theories through his media outlets and ban everybody who disagrees."

The National Weight Control Registry tells us that only 2% of successful weight loss people, used a high protein style diet. (2) Certainly everybody who has tried to lose weight, has tried Atkins. All diets have problems with some dieters regaining weight. But Atkins seems to be the worst, in terms of keeping it off, for almost all people.

Dr. Atkins died obese, with heart disease (from a virus, according to his publicists). He probably died of a stroke, since there were no bruises on his hands, to break his fall. His family fought in court to keep his bad health and autopsy a secret, and then sold the Atkins name for hundreds of millions of dollars to a diet company. That sounds very un-ethical to me. And then Atkins' family said Dr. Fleming was unethical, because he made public some autopsy information, which typically is public information, prior to being aware of the court action.

Jimmy Moore has no calcified arteries? Really? How do you know? He is a young man yet.

Go with the program that have the best results(1):

"Researchers at UCLA followed 652 men and women with Type 2 diabetes who attended the Pritikin Longevity Center and found that within three weeks, 76% of those recently diagnosed with the disease (they were not yet on oral drugs) were able to lower their blood glucose to normal ranges."

"Many diabetics can even get off their medications. A meta-analysis of 864 Type 2 diabetics found that 74% who arrived at Pritikin on oral drugs no longer needed them when they left the Center three weeks later. They had reduced their blood glucose to normal ranges without drugs. Of those diabetics taking insulin injections, 44% were successful in getting off insulin."

"Several studies have also found that the Pritikin Program reduces fasting insulin by 30 to 40%."

"New research has also found that the Pritikin Program can reverse the Metabolic Syndrome. In 50% of adult Americans studied, the Pritikin Program reversed the diagnosis of Metabolic Syndrome, and in just three weeks. In new research following children with the Metabolic Syndrome, 100% no longer had the syndrome within two weeks of starting the Pritikin Program."

Some people like theories more than results. There are lots of theories. How can we know what to believe?

(1) http://www.pritikin.com/your-health/health-benefits/diabetes.html

(2) personal communication between http://www.nwcr.ws/ professors, and Dr. Jay Kenney of the Pritikin Center.

Best regards, EngineerGuy

"So with my own inimitable ability to unintentionally raise the hackles of just about everyone in every camp"

I can identify with that...

There is one thing that I have seldom if ever heard considered. There is no way to know if Dr. Atkins or Jimmy Moore or anyone else is actually following the diet he writes about or recommends. People don't gain as much as Jimmy Moore seems to have gained overnight. For all anyone knows, the diet he proposes might be an excellent diet which he himself has failed to follow. It seems to me he had a lot at stake because of his very public profile. When he gained the first ten or twenty pounds he should have had a clue. As should we all when we start to gain. So the very low carb might indeed be a bad diet but did Mr. Moore actually follow it?

As to the calcium scan. I googled the test and have to admit what I read confused me. Firstly, I was surprised to find that although the scan can tell that you have calcium deposits it cannot specifically locate the arteries in which there are deposits. In our culture, the deposits increase with age which is not surprising because in this culture age increase the build up of plaque if you maintain whatever diet you were on that caused the buildup to begin with.

Also, I think someone on a group which I can't remember, mentioned he had a calcium scan which increased after being on a low fat and meat diet. However, I did read that you cannot use the scan to follow the progress of disease. In other words, continuing on the same diet that is causing blockages will not necessarily linearly show an increase in calcium deposits nor will a change in diet necessarily show a decrease.

Jimmy Moore is only about 41 years old. His lack of calcium deposits could mean that he is too young yet to have them show up, that he has young plaque that hasn't calcified, that cholesterol is building up in the walls of the arteries and even an angiogram wouldn't detect it, that his diet really is great and prevents arteriosclerosis, that he has that rare lipoprotein that allows him to eat any amount of cholesterol and saturated fat and not suffer artery damage.

Dolores

Those who favor calcium scans like Dr Davis claim it can be used to monitor the progress of heart disease and there is some evidence to back up this claim.But I have also heard of cases where a person had heart disease and a 0 calcium score.

EG, I just noticed part of your reply in which you said Atkins probably died of a stroke not a fall because there were no bruises on his hands where he tried to break his fall. I have to tell you that when I caught my foot in the door of the damn cheap refrigerator door which I bought to save money (damn) it happened so fast and I fell sideways so I did not reach out to break my fall. So from my own experience I know that you can fall in such a way that you just can't reach out to break the fall. And while I am at it let me caution everyone about buying cheap refrigerators. Get the good kind with the freezer on the bottom--otherwise you might end up with a broken hip.

Dolores