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    vegetables don't correlate with benefits???
    jc3737 posted:
    Why does the med diet correlate with benefits but this does not.Maybe its something other than fruits and vegetables.Thats what this would suggest since neither is a strict low fat diet typical of McDougall,Essee,Campbell etc.
    engineerguy responded:
    Hi jc,

    Re: "Why does the med diet correlate with benefits but this does not. Maybe its something other than fruits and vegetables.Thats what this would suggest..."

    Read the results: "...increases occurred in intakes of vegetables/fruits (1.1 servings/d)"

    Not much changed. Did we expect that increasing the total intake of fruits plus veggies, by 1 serving a day, our whole health would change? Amazingly, there were "modest effects on CVD risk factors". The study was "suggesting that more focused diet and lifestyle interventions may be needed to improve risk factors and reduce CVD risk." To which I would add: "duh"

    Our endemic Heart disease, diabetes, hypertension and stroke are serious problems, giving most of us debilitating loss of quality of life on our later years. Simply eating one more serving of vegetables is not quite the medicine required.

    A very serious problem, indeed the loss of healthy life, requires a very serious change in lifestyle. Incredible Health, Super Immunity, and a Youthful Brain, result, after a total makeover, where all the bad stuff is eliminated (nearly all meat, fish, poultry, dairy, salt, sugar, processed foods), and all the good stuff becomes the total diet (veggies, fruit, beans, nuts and seeds, whole grains). Cheats of eating rich addictive SAD (Standard American Diet) foods, becomes something occasional or rare.

    And the good food becomes delicious, just as delicious as the steak and ice cream diet I used to enjoy.

    Thanks for letting me rant a bit, jc, for some of the reading audience that might not be regular readers. It's easy for us to gloss over details, and just hear the headlines. The headlines are designed to increase ratings, not to educate.

    But thanks for the PubMed link. I'll save that.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
    I think you did a good job of explaining why the study was flawed.The success of the plant based diets may also be in what they omit which is something a study will not be able to test unless they are aware of the specific rules that Fuhrman/McDougall/Essee/Barnard follow.

    But why does the Med diet appear successful?They don't really follow those rules and do not omit any food type including fat and pastry.They just add some more fruits and vegetables.I lived in that part of the world when I was a kid and young teenager.They do eat a ton of junk and lots of fat and sugar.

    That leads me to speculate that the Med diet may have some other factors that account for its apparent success..
    engineerguy replied to jc3737's response:
    Hi jc,

    The mediterranean diet used to be mostly veggies and olive oil, without the ton of junk and fat and sugar. The people used to be very lean. Today all places of the world are moving towards the SAD. Even the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico, who used to have 150 mile kick ball races, and lived on beans and corn, have hypertension now, from eating salted chips (according to National Geographic, about a year ago).

    I'm speculating that the med diet had less success, as it gained a ton of fat and sugar. But, including a lot of veggies is still helpful, even when adding to the SAD.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
    The med diet has always used a good bit of fat, sugar and pastry at least it did in the late 50s and early 60s....that I know for sure...I ate it! and often.

    They did eat more fruits and vegetables than Americans but nothing even remotely approaching the levels we do with the Fuhrman/Mcdougall style diet.We have seen many studies that show adding more fruits and vegetables doesn't have much effect and thats about the level of increased fruits and veges that we see with the Med diet.

    I think the answer has to lie elsewhere....Some say its the olive oil but I think it may be grapes/wine..who knows for sure...but the addition of some fruits and vegetables....not likely given the multiple studies.

    Dolores was on a diet that included tons of fruits and vegetables and a very small amount of fish but that was not enough to keep her safe.Which may show what you omit is far more important than what you include.
    dteresa replied to jc3737's response:
    Jc, I was also overweight for many many years and did not eat a plant based diet although my blood sugars were always normal after I changed from the SAD to a more Pritikin diet. I also indulged in pizza, ice cream and cheese doodles over the years. If you watch plant positive's videos you will find he says that there is something about a diabetic which predisposes him to damaged arteries even with the best diet. Maybe it is inevitable and I did have an MI at the age of 68. As my late father used to say--you are no spring chicken. So I am not a poster girl for the plant based diet although now my diet is 100% plant based. Don't take any bets on me however because I do have a DEstent in place and even I am not totally cheerful about my chances. The damage has already been done.

    As to the Mediterranean diet--my grandfather was from a small town in Italy. He came here when he was 16 but maintained the eating habits he had as a boy. He lived into his nineties. I believe in his last years my mother, who was totally devoted to him, killed him by sneaking dairy, eggs and meat into his diet when he came to live with us. She thought she was "building him up". However, grandpop normally ate very little meat and then only meat on the bone, like chicken necks and feet. He ate lots of white Italian, bread, olive oil, pasta and he picked his own dandelions, poke weed and mushrooms. And made his own wine both from grapes and dandelions. If he ate sweets at all, it was very abstemiously. I remember a sweet he brought back from Italy once. It was in a little cardboard box about two inches by one inch in size a nougat with almonds. I didn't like it.

    His friends ate the same way. Never large portions. And he walked a whole lot. He was in his eighties when I left home and I remember him walking about 5 miles to the cemetery which had open fields where he picked dandelions. He came here to work to pay off his father's debts and remained, except for visits back to Italy, for the rest of his life. I know where he came from was not a place where a diet of anything but the necessities was eaten. I do not think they had the luxury of lots of fats and sweets. I had one aunt who I was told worked one whole summer in the fields for a farmer. Her payment for the whole summer was a jar of olive oil which I assume was a very large jar but a jar never the less. Hardly something you would be wasting and would most likely conserve to last till the next summer.

    jc3737 replied to dteresa's response:
    It sounds like you grandfathers diet differed from the diets of my friends,but then we lived in the city...Ankara and Paris.My father was career military so we moved around a good bit....we also lived in Osaka,Japan in the early- mid 50s.

    The Japanese ate a MUCH more plant based diet than those from the Med was almost totally rice.

    My Turkish friends ate far less than the Americans and was more starch based...bread was their staple...but my French friends ate a much richer diet but bread was still very important to them....much more so than in the US.....and everyone got more exercise than Americans.
    engineerguy replied to jc3737's response:
    Hi Dolores,

    OK, I had to look it up. Abstemiously. Thx !

    Re: " Don't take any bets on me however because I do have a DEstent in place and even I am not totally cheerful about my chances. The damage has already been done. "


    You are a champ !! You are an inspiration to many people, and when you are not helping cure someone, you are giving them stitches laughing!! The rate of strokes from stents was about 1%, and those people were eating the SAD !! You will do just fine, thank you!

    Some of our health is heredity, and some just luck. But the part that we control is immense, for those of us that take it seriously. Take comfort in that, and have faith.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
    My father in law had by pass surgery and a stent put in 25 yrs ago and he is still here just two months short of his 88th birthday.He does have macular degeneration from many decades of taking a full dose aspirin every day,but he can still see.He is doing fine other than a few minor memory problems....and he eats tons of junk food...chips and ice cream every day

    I agree with EG...SNAP OUT OF IT.
    engineerguy replied to jc3737's response:
    Well take that, Dolores!!

    LOL We know you just had a moment, and that's fine. We know you carry the torch for the cause, to promote the healthy lifestyle, and you have confidence in yourself, as you ought to.

    So be thankful, Dolores, that jc and I care about you. And we do. We just want to be sure you are fine, and take a moment to give you grief. There's really so little opportunity, you know.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    heretk replied to engineerguy's response:
    EG, You are missing the fact that the marginality of the response means that the result is not does dependent! If adding 1 extra serving of fruit or vegetables did zilch why are you so sure that adding 2 would have made a difference? I agree with JC - the fact the study produced almost zero response gives us a hint that something else than vegetables, fruit and fat avoidance may be at play. Denise Minger in her long series of essays has suggested the same thing. It probably ain't veggies that make a difference.

    heretk replied to jc3737's response:
    Re: Dolores was on a diet that included tons of fruits and vegetables and a very small amount of fish but that was not enough to keep her safe.Which may show what you omit is far more important than what you include.

    It looks like! It could be the modern wheat, perhaps! Did Italians introduce the new high yield dwarf wheat variety in the 50-ties or later, or not at all? Did they consume their own wheat?

    anon615 replied to heretk's response:
    I thought that the study we are referring to added just a very small amount of vegetables but actually did improve outcomes by a very small amount.

    heretk responded:
    Yes absolutely! That was easy. That "something" is animal fat, dairy fat, cheeses, eggs and olive oil abundantly present in the Meditteranean diet but absent in the so-called "healthy" vegetable low fat diets usually recommended in medical trials.

    anon615 replied to heretk's response:
    The fact is that some people eat swill and live to be 100 and others omit junk food and they exercise, don't smoke or drink and die at a relatively young age. It seems that younger and younger people are overweight and develop diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease. So someone is doing something wrong. The thing is, no matter how many studies you quote, ultimately the question is--what is best for me?

    As to good health and long life: A paleo eater might live a long and healthy life. A high carb eater might live a long and healthy life. If you live a long and healthy life is it because of the diet you have chosen or because you have such fantastic genes that nothing you can do short of getting hit by a beer truck will shorten your life. Or despite what each camp claims, is one type of diet great for some and another type great for others? Could either or both be healthful for some and unhealthful for others? Is there a point at which it is too late to remedy years of eating processed junk food and under exercising?

    Unless Esselstyn is a big fat liar it surely seems that a lot of very sick people lived longer than their own physicians expected. And with other improvements. So far I have read of men with erectile dysfunction who claim that a plant based low fat diet reversed the ED. I don't know. Have there been similar claims for those who eat lots of meat, fat, dairy and eggs? Or any one or any combination of the above?

    What it comes down to is--asking yourself if you feel better on your diet and if your risk factors like blood pressure, blood sugar etc are improving.


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