Skip to content
new book
avatar
jc3737 posted:
Read Pattys post with the exerpt from Campbell's new book.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36901
Reply
 
avatar
jc3737 responded:
"Another way to pursue truth, proposed by the famous science philosopher Karl Popper, is to try to falsify our hypotheses—in effect, to seek out the boundaries of our mental paradigms and push against them, to see if they can withstand scrutiny. Can we find evidence to disprove our hypotheses, and are we able to take seriously such evidence? At times, I cannot help but wonder how much and how often our rules and strategies keep us from straying from the status quo."

I have mentioned many times on this forum the "Einstein-Popper" method of arriving at truth....through question and debate as opposed to a love fest of agreement....and I used it to justify debate on support forums saying debate may take the form of support.

It looks like Dr Campbell just might be in agreement with that idea.
 
avatar
jc3737 replied to jc3737's response:
From several years ago...a discussion of the Einstein/Popper method,

http://forums.webmd.com/3/diet-debate/forum/180/6
 
avatar
heretk responded:
Yes, he is backpedalling on fat but he still did not acknowledged his mistake on casein pointed out by Chris Masterjohn, the artifact of sub-lethal dosage of aflatoxins.

I think there is a certain point beyond which one's investment of time in correcting other people's errors produces a diminishing return. I think there is a point of diminishing return beyond which correcting errors of people like Dr. Campbell becomes counter-productive. Paper is patient.

This is interesting:

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/coronary-heart-disease/by-country/

Dr. Cate blog is also good.
 
avatar
jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
Dr Campbell may have made errors...I don't know... but can't you give him some credit for his quote.....

"Another way to pursue truth, proposed by the famous science philosopher Karl Popper, is to try to falsify our hypotheses—in effect, to seek out the boundaries of our mental paradigms and push against them, to see if they can withstand scrutiny. Can we find evidence to disprove our hypotheses, and are we able to take seriously such evidence? At times, I cannot help but wonder how much and how often our rules and strategies keep us from straying from the status quo."
 
avatar
heretk replied to jc3737's response:
No I can't, because Campbell is quoting Popper's method but not applying it! Had he applied it he would not have published those multitudes of flawed casein papers only to be embarrassed by two twenty-something years olds shooting them through!

Had he applied scientific method of questioning his theories and examining the data from several point of views, he would never have written his condemnation of animal produce in his China Study book since the raw China study data published by Oxford was not supporting it!

There is just too many mistakes and too many attempts at what looks to me like damage control exercises instead of a dialog, for example with Masterjohn. I am writing DIALOG not debate because dialog is when two sides are talking while considering each other partners. Debates produced by Campbell, McDougall or Fuhrman resemble a duel fought to death. Not an inch back! You had a good example with McDougall vs Moore, or previously Campbell vs Minger, Campbell vs Masterjohn etc.

Heretic
 
avatar
heretk replied to heretk's response:
... or Fuhrman vs McDougall !
 
avatar
jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
Debate should always be civil and respectful but the main reason why debate is more important than dialogue is pointed out by Popper and Einstein.It tends to get at truth where as dialogue may not be as effective.

If it is not civil and respectful then it's not debate is just an argument.

I don't have the science or statistical background to evaluate the data so I have no idea if Dr Campbell made mistakes.But It would be great to see it debated with a neutral highy trained monitor as referee/moderator.
 
avatar
heretk replied to jc3737's response:
Re: " It would be great to see it debated with a neutral highy trained monitor as referee/moderator."


Ornish, McDougall and Campbell have been for years trying to lecture us but avoiding a dialog with us! What is the point of, for example Jimmy Moore having a polite conversation on air, if his opponent immediately gets emotional and then confrontational? McDougall showed that he does not seem to value a dialog!


They are grown adults who will bear the fruit of their actions and beliefs of what is and what is not "right". Besides, you need two to want to have a dialog not just one guy like Moore!


Heretic

 
avatar
heretk replied to heretk's response:
Also, a debate is IMHO not superior or a substitute for a dialog. If there is no underlying desire to listen to the argument but instead a drive to "win a fight" by one party, then a "debate" is just a show of no value to me or you. It is like a show where one side is singing a song and the other side is boxing punches.

Heretic
 
avatar
jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
"What is the point of, for example Jimmy Moore having a polite conversation on air, if his opponent immediately gets emotional and then confrontational? McDougall showed that he does not seem to value a dialog! "

I can't say for sure but it has been reported that Dr McDougall was provoked by Moore....being called chicken and other names....yes if you just take the transcript alone he comes off very poorly to say the least and I am disappointed he did not keep his coool even if he was provoked...

but you did not address the issue of him being called names and being provoked....that would shift the majority of the blame to Moore.....if its true.
 
avatar
jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
"Also, a debate is IMHO not superior or a substitute for a dialog"

Popper and Einstein would disagree....both believed that debate was necessay for one idea to push against another,with back and forth each trying to disprove the other.They thought to have one trying to disprove the other was critical to getting at truth.

But its important that debate stay polite and respectful.I think you may have the belief that debate gets ugly and personal so I can see why you might have a negative opinion of it....I guess it all depends on ones definition of debate.
 
avatar
heretk replied to jc3737's response:
You are right that we may be splitting a hair about a definition of the word "debate". I agree, if you take debate as being a civilized exchange of ideas and views, than it is creative and useful. However that is not often a type of "debate" we often hear in public, in the media. In this culture (both East and West) it is important for people in position of power to NEVER appear to have lost anything, including "losing" an argument. How often did you see a book author, a corporate manager or school principal admitting that she was wrong? This encourages an attitude of clinging to the old position and old beliefs.

I did not see any denigrating comments by Moore except a slight dosage of a teasing to entice Dr. M to come on air. Moore succeeded but I wished he didn't. I would rather not listen to somebody so emotional and bad tempered as Dr. M. since I didn't really learn anything! We are better off without people like this participating in our venues since all it does is increase a level of negative emotions and creates an atmosphere of uneasiness. JC, I think that we both are doing fabulously, learning and advancing our skills on our own, without gurus, experts, leaders, champions, stars and other distractions.
Best regards,

Heretic

Happy Solstice!


Spotlight: Member Stories

Let's see.... I'm the mom of six (three hers, three mine) who used to live in Florida but now lives in the Chicago area. (Don't ask.) I&#...More

Helpful Tips

Scientific Evidence for HCG Weight Loss
The words "scientific evidence" are being thrown around a lot recently in regard to "DIETS" and while those words appear to be "Medically ... More
Was this Helpful?
12 of 29 found this helpful

Related News

There was an error with this newsfeed

Report Problems With Your Medications to the FDA

FDAYou are encouraged to report negative side effects of prescription drugs to the FDA. Visit the FDA MedWatch website or call 1-800-FDA-1088.