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jc3737 responded:
If Dr McDougall seemed a rude this quote from Dr McDougall may explain why.

"I had no intention of being respectful to Jimmy Moore for several reasons and the most important being that the low-carb message is sickening millions of people. The public is confused. I am not here to win a popularity contest.

Besides this is how he invited me to be interviewed for his podcast:

01-03-2012 10:28 PM
Low-fat, high-carb diet guru Dr. John McDougall is back
Low-fat, high-carb diet guru Dr. John McDougall is back with a brand new book called STARCH SOLUTION: http://santarosa.towns.pressdemocrat.com...an-endures ~ He says, "Dr. Atkins died killed him." NOT! This guy is a public disgrace and too chicken to come on my podcast to talk about his blood sugar-spiking high-starch diet.

(the message appears to have been removed from his blog-http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/showthread.php?tid=7273)"
 
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heretk replied to jc3737's response:
Dr. McDougall sounded really authoritarian, confrontational and aggressive, much more so than Moore! I wonder if that has something to do with Dr. McDougall experiencing some mood problem at that time, having a bad day perhaps and experiencing difficulty in controlling his temper? He seems to insist that there exists only one way and that is his way, where as those who disagree become branded as personal "enemies" and spoken very harshly of! He does not even allow posting any contrary research links on his forum let alone allow a real debate!



Isn't it quite typical in the way many not just some vegans react to contrary arguments? A vast majority of vegan forums seems full of highly strung easily offended people who tend to get extremely angry at a slightest of a disagreement!


I think it is a common pattern, not an exception!


Unlike McDougall who insisted on a complete conformance to his views, Moore simply stated if McDougall's vegetable diet does good to some people then by all means do it, while if someone else thrives instead on fat and low carb then it is fine too.

This is very refreshing, I am glad guys like Moore exist and talk!

Heretic
 
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jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
What I was pointing out was that he may have been pushed into the agressive stance by being called out by Mr Moore and being called chicken,etc.No doubt if you just take the transcript alone Dr McDougall came off in a very poor light and everything you said is true....but he was pushed prior to the program and that does not come through in the transcript.

Some in the vegan world are beginning to understand how important the Popper method is and the need to try every avenue to disprove their own ideas,even on support forums.I use the Popper method all the time and do my best to disprove my own beliefs,ideas,and theories.

Many accept this debate philosophy but very rigid minded people take offence at it as if you have challenged their religious dogma.

All that said I think Dr. McDougall is right and my personal diet consists of brown rice,potatoesbeans and steamed vegetables.... but I don't miss a chance to try and prove his ideas are wrong.Thats why we need J. Moore,Taubes,Denise,and others....you never know who will turn out to be right in the long run.Einstein and Popper knew that may decades ago.
 
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heretk replied to jc3737's response:
Re: "All that said I think Dr. McDougall is right and my personal diet consists of brown rice,potatoes beans and steamed vegetables.... but I don't miss a chance to try and prove his ideas are wrong.Thats why we need J. Moore,Taubes,Denise,and others....you never know who will turn out to be right in the long run.Einstein and Popper knew that may decades ago."


I agree, except the first statement. McDougall diet may be right for you at this moment and IMHO in the short term only, and I do hope you are supplementing with B12, D3, A and K2. McDougall is not right because he is mistaken saying that natural native human nutrition is or should be strictly plant-only. There are no strict vegan natives living or having lived anywhere in the world and even some who live predominantly on starchy vegetables and fruit do also consume some animal produce, fish or shelfish. If he disagrees let him show us one!

McDougall diet may be right for some people in some circumstances but I think he is generally WRONG on lecturing everybody to eat mostly starch. I met many diabetics on the webmd and other on-line forums who tried it, and for whom such high starch diets resulted in their blood sugar spiking consistently DANGEROUSLY high and some whose arteriosclerosis has been progressing no differently from the general Western population.


Regards,
Heretic
 
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jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
It may not be for everyone but it works for some.You are correct when you say that rural vegan societies do eat some animal products but for those with serious problems that may not be the best thing...I can't say for sure...all i can say is that it seems to be working for me.

I supplement with iodine,D3,and B-12.

In another 10 yrs we will know more if Dr Campbell and Dr Essee are still alive and healthy and in another 20yrs I will be able to tell you if it worked for me....as will Drs Fuhrman and McDougall.
 
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heretk replied to jc3737's response:
JC, I looked at Jimmy Moore quote:

This guy is a public disgrace and too chicken to come on my podcast to talk about his blood sugar-spiking high-starch diet.


I am sorry but I do not consider it really offensive! Provocative yes, insulting - no!


JC, do you remember how Bill Clinton's campaigned, bringing a chicken-dressed up joker to his opponent's public meetings, after he (I believe it was Bush) refused to debate him. Clinton called him "chicken"!


I invite Dr. McDougall call me "chicken" if I ever refuse to debate him, I promise I won't mind. He is welcome to call me worse things, however one has to keep in mind that what comes out of one's mouth will tarnish the self person more than anyone else.


Dr. McDougall, please lighten up. Relax, make friends with people, make friends with your "enemies" regardless what theories we subscribe to. We are not out there to get you, neither me nor Jimmy Moore. He is making a living (tough one) in FM broadcasting, interviewing people; you are selling diet books, please consider him your colleague and treat him with respect.


Your
Heretic
[ Stan Bleszynski >






 
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engineerguy replied to heretk's response:
Hi folks,

Interesting use of the word "debate".

A quote from Jimmy Moore talking about Dr. McDougall: "This guy is a public disgrace and too chicken to come on my podcast to talk about his blood sugar-spiking high-starch diet."

Clearly, Jimmy Moore is ignorant, and is determined to remain ignorant, of the fact that the Pritikin diet (and the similar McDougall diet) is medically documented to lower blood sugar and reverse diabetes. Diabetics get better and stay better. Results trump theories. What kind of debate is possible under such conditions, that one party simply repeats a mantra that is untenable and disproven?

I have many times posted that the high protein diet is worst for regaining the weight, as shown by the National Weight Loss Registry. (Only 1% of those who successfully kept the weight off, reported using a high protein type program.) Heretic responded that you have to stay on the diet. Jimmy Moore is a prime example that the high protein diet has the worst record on keeping the weight off. Heretic responds that Jimmy Moore is a prime example of the Popper-Einstein scientific method, to try and try again. And all the while he is publishing books and blogging as an authority on (what) ?

Why do I sense deja vu on all this?

Best regards, EngineerGuy
 
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jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
"Heretic responds that Jimmy Moore is a prime example of the Popper-Einstein scientific method, to try and try again."

EG,the Popper/Einstein method is a way of arriving at truth.They say no one should be sure of their theories and one should always be trying to push back against their own theories,beliefs and ideas trying to disprove what they believe.This provides a level of support for ones ideas by shooting down contrary idea that come up and brings us closer and closer to truth with each challenge.

Dr TC Campbell also believes the same thing ...that debate is necessary and that one does need to challenge their own theories about diet.It is in the final analysis the only REAL support.

So when someone says that debate should be limited or not allowed on a support forum you can see they are denying the only REAL support.

Neither Dr McDougall nor Jimmy Moore said anything about this method.It was only Dr Campbell.and someone posted his comment on the McDougall forum.
 
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heretk replied to engineerguy's response:
Re: Clearly, Jimmy Moore is ignorant, and is determined to remain ignorant, of the fact that the Pritikin diet (and the similar McDougall diet) is medically documented to lower blood sugar and reverse diabetes. Diabetics get better and stay better.


Yes, many people are unaware of many things. That applies to us too.


Yes, Jimmy Moore seems to be unaware that low fat low caloric vegan diets may help some people with diabetes but Dr. McDougall seems to be unaware that such diet may also worsen or cause diabetes in some people. Ask Dr. William Davis about his own experience and ask Jimmy Moore about his own experience. Such diets also do not seem to completely prevent calcification of arteries in some people, ask Engineer Guy of his own experience.


Dr McDougall seems also unaware that low carb diets may also reverse diabetes in some patients, ask Dr. Westman or Dr. Richard Feynman, editor of Nutrition and Metabolism. Ask Jimmy Moore of his own experience. BTW - one can of course put up some weight on a high protein diet, even become obese! Did this make him diabetic again? Nope!


Best regards,
Heretic


BTW


I am NOT against you, work with me! Please don't get angry or dismissive, even if I or other people may occasionally be wrong about something or disagree with you.



 
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engineerguy replied to heretk's response:
Hi Heretic,
Hi Jc,

Thanks for your message.

Jimmy Moore said "This guy is a public disgrace and too chicken to come on my podcast to talk about his blood sugar-spiking high-starch diet." He is saying the McDougall diet causes diabetes. He latches onto what supports him, and ignores what proves him wrong. What kind of a "debate" would that be?

This is balderdash. You point out some people who say the diet did not work for them. Which diet were these people following? Was it Pritikin or McDougall or something quite different, similar only in some buzz words? We really don't know. One benefit of attending the Pritikin center is that the diet is provided for you. It is expensive, but the Pritikin Center would not exist except for a wealthy benefactor who supplements the budget each year. The Pritikin Center does not run at a profit, very unfortunately.

It's easy to fall into fuzzy thinking. Go with the diet with the best results. Where are the results for Jimmy Moore's diet? What would suggest that Jimmy Moore knows anything valuable about health?

http://www.pritikin.com/your-health/health-benefits/diabetes.html

I do have better results with Fuhrman. I am sure there will be improvements in the coming years.

Heretic, I am wishing you the best. I will be thrilled to join you. Just bring data. Just bring results.

Best regards, EngineerGuy
 
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jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
I realize this is not science but the vegan diet did lower my A1c and fasting blood glucose.My FBG is now around 84.It was 136,

My a1c is now below 5.The diet does seem to work for diabetes or maybe its just the weight loss associated with the diet.I don't know but I do know I have gone from a dangerous level of blood glucose to one that is actually a good bit better than average even for a much younger person.

Will this continue or will the benefits break down in the long run?I don't know but I have to go with what is working right now.
 
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heretk replied to engineerguy's response:
Hi EG,

How strong is your belief in the plant based nutrition (PBN)?

a) The only true nutrition, everything else must be false and harmful

b) PBN is good for a vast majority, some people may thrive on other types of food but those are exception

c) PBN is half-and-half - good for some but not all, bad for some but not all.

d) I do PBN for moral reasons regardless of the consequences

Do you have a strong religious beliefs in monotheistic authoritarian God?

Best regards,
Heretic
 
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jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
I see the comparison with religion but don't you think it also works to ask the same questions and substitute low carb nutrition for plant based nutrition?
 
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heretk replied to jc3737's response:
JC, yes to your statement, no you misunderstood my intentions. I am not asking or questioning what does EG believes, I am questioning how does he believes in whatever that is that he believes in. Yes, religion absolutely does come in play here! I never realized this before until I recently. The similarity is absolutely striking - and that is the main reason I was never truly able to communicate with Engineer Guy. It has nothing too do with the lack or abundance of evidence, it has everything to do with implicit intentions.

For example you are completely, different that is your intentions are purely practical, that is "whatever works". I have no problem with that at all.

In contrast EG is trying to defend an agenda. I wish he threw out all his diet idols, prophets, gurus and all that crap that are holding his mind back, and instead joined us! I wish more people have done that!


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