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Dr Mann
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jc3737 posted:
I noticed in the "Tennessean" an obituary for George V Mann,born in 1913.It mentioned he did not accept that cholesterol caused heart disease.
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engineerguy responded:
Hi jc,

thx for the info.

Dr. Mann stated in his publication that the Masai had a high cholesterol, high saturated fat diet, and had worse atherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries) than Americans.

But if someone were to say that cholesterol is the cause of heart disease, I would agree that such a statement is much too simplistic. Cholesterol is an important factor.

Best regards, EngineerGuy
 
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jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
You can see why I have some level of doubt.The obit said he did not consider fat or cholesterol to be the cause of heart disease..he ate a diet with plenty of animal products..and he lived to the age of 100!

Even if in the future if is proven that meat,and other animal products are healthy I would still not be able to eat them simply beacuse it causes my blood sugar and blood pressure to rise.....and fat caises me gastrointestinal problems GERD.

So it looks like I am forced to stick with greens,beans,brown rice and potatoes.
 
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engineerguy replied to jc3737's response:
Hi jc,

Down the street from my Mom, was an obese woman who lived alone to 104 years old. That proves that obesity is fine, at least, if we want it to.

Best regards, EngineerGuy
 
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engineerguy replied to engineerguy's response:
Hi jc,

Re: "You can see why I have some level of doubt.The obit said he did not consider fat or cholesterol to be the cause of heart disease..he ate a diet with plenty of animal products..and he lived to the age of 100!"

We don't know what Dr. Mann ate. He might have eaten lots of veggies. He hasn't lived in a cave since the 1970's, you know. And the obit was quoting Dr. Mann in the 1970's. Dr. Mann's publication said clearly "The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men." (1) That absolutely does not say that animal products are harmless. It says Americans are healthy, by comparison. That's extreme! That's what Dr. Mann said.

Dr. Atkins died obese. Jimmy Moore published a book about how he lost all that weight, but wait - he gained it all back. Jimmy is obese again, but doesn't have diabetes (yet?).

Fat causes GERD for most of us. Natural diets simply do not include an excess of calories, even in the few cases where there is a high fat source. Our instincts urge us to overeat whenever we can, to avoid the famine that our instincts know is coming. If human history was always down the street from a supermarket, we probably would not have the instinct to overeat. Anyway, our body is telling us, with GERD, that maybe that meal is not such a good idea, as a routine thing.

Best regards,
EngineerGuy

(1) http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/1/26
 
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jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
I don't know if they were quoting Dr Mann from the 70s or not...but the obit was done by his family who should know what he finally concluded.The obit mentioned he considered lack of exercise to be a primary cause of heart disease.

Fat and sugar causing GERD...I have had to cut back on nuts to only one or two per day as they often cause GERD.Anything with sugar in it also causes GERD and nuts have sugar as does fruit and high sugar vegetables like carrots.I have to stick with mostly,greens,mushrooms,collards,brussel sprouts,green leaf lettuce since I have become very sensitive to sugar in most any form.But greens,potatoes, and brown rice do not cause any problem.One cup of beans per day also does not cause a problem but more that that can, at times, be a problem as even beans have sugar in them.

Atkins and Moore are poor examples of the diets they represent but Heretic on the other hand is a very good representative of his diet.But it does seem that the vegan diet leaders all seem to be slim and healthy.
 
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engineerguy replied to jc3737's response:
Hi jc,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, the family probably knows Dr. Mann's opinions. Not only are Atkins and Moore poor examples of their diets, they are the guru's. They realized that they were getting obese, and they would get caught by the press and disappoint their followers. But they couldn't fix it. Pretty sad. If they can't keep it up, then almost nobody can. Again, the National Weight Registry tells us the same message.

Sorry to hear about the GERD. It's certainly no fun. I can get heartburn with too much sourdough bread.

Heretic is a good man, and I wish him all the best. I wish he were able to report anything about his health, except his cholesterol level, which the Masai tell us is not re-assuring. What does his retina look like, when he sees the eye doctor? He does not exercise or take any vitamins. How is his vitamin D level? You can only tell with a blood test. (At the age of 60, my first blood vitamin D test showed that I was seriously deficient in D.) How are his bones? Does ketosis promote calcuria? Really, all we know about Heretic's health is that he's young, slim (good) and he's still here (great).

OK, here's a link suggesting that yes, a ketogenic diet induces calciuria, loss of calcium in the urine.

"Renal Stone Associated with the Ketogenic Diet in a 5-Year Old Girl with Intractable Epilepsy"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/

Recall that Heretic was suggesting that a high protein diet was healthy, because it is used to treat epilepsy in children. Maybe it is used in spite of the side effects, because there is nothing else.

This frightens me that Heretic really has no idea about many possibly serious issues.

By the way, a healthy young astronaut in space, loses 1-2 % of their entire bone density, each month. This is attributed to microgravity and high sodium diet, in the technical article I saw. In studies predicting hip fracture, the strongest single predictor was muscle strength. If our muscles are strong, our bones will be strong. If our muscles are weak, the calcium will pour out of our bones. Unless, of course, we think we will do better than a healthy young astronaut.

Best regards,
EngineerGuy
 
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jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
I don't think Heretic is that much younger than we are.But I have learned to never dismiss what a "heretic" may have to say,whether it be science,nutrition,or ideas about the very nature of reality.

If you get a chance google Karl Popper "The Logic Of Scientific Discovery" and the "The Open Society and Its Enemies"
 
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heretk replied to jc3737's response:
Hi JC and EG,

I am 57.

I never said that high protein diet was healthy, I say that high animal fat low carb is healthy. The reason I do not post my health tests results is that I have not done any. I live in Canada and have absolutely no control over the doctors who supposedly work on my behalf (my foot...) and may or may not order the tests for me, whatever they choose not what I chose. Also since an average doctor here earns 300k$ (10 times an average private sector salary - unfortunately they haven't yet been outsorced to China), most of us who work, including me, cannot afford private medical test from them.

Osteopenia and calcium leaching from bones - unless you happen to fly in space, the next most common reason (1) is lack of protein in the diet (like for example in anorexia), and excessive consumption of simple carbohydrates (2) (especially sugar and sugar beverages). There are many studies about th sugar factor.

Since WGA (wheat germ agglutins) from wheat are known vitamin D blockers, a high wheat diet (3) would be particularly bad for bone health.

Or a combination of the three above factors, that is a vegan low caloric diet low in protein, high in carbohydrates and high in wheat (like for example your vegan diet, EG).

Best regards,
Heretic
 
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jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
"Since WGA (wheat germ agglutins) from wheat are known vitamin D blockers, a high wheat diet (3) would be particularly bad for bone health"

I have never heard this... any studies you can post?This conflicts with the McDougall arguments which say osteopenia does not exist in the starch eating societies and is caused by meat and other foods that promote acidity which is then neutralized by the calcium that comes form bones.

I get all the tests I ask for....anything from fasting insulin to IGF1 and insurance has never denied any claim for anything I have asked for and I ask for a lot.I can't understand why the Canadian health system would limit any from of preventive medicine....that would save them money in the long run.
 
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engineerguy replied to heretk's response:
Hi Heretic,

You are correct that a low protein diet can cause calcium loss. You ignore that most people on the SAD are losing calcium by the bucket load, due to high protein, which also sucks out calcium, especially animal protein.

A few years ago, I weighed out all the food I ate, and ran through the nutrition calculators, and I get 100gms of plant protein daily. No problem with low protein. People cannot understand how I get so much protein as a vegan. I eat vegetables, fruit, nuts & seeds, beans and whole grains (with very little wheat). Everything I eat is high in protein, except whole grains (moderate) or fruit (low).

On the SAD, people eat white flour, sugar, high fructose corn syrup, oils, animal fats, meat and dairy. All is very low in protein except meat and dairy. White flour is moderate in protein. All are devoid of calcium, except dairy. Again, everything I eat is high in calcium, except fruit. So, if I get enough calories (I do) I get plenty of protein and calcium.

The actual major causes of poor bone health are smoking, weak muscles, high animal protein, high sodium. Additional factors are vitamin A supplements, inadequate phytochemicals from veggies.

Re: "Osteopenia and calcium leaching from bones - unless you happen to fly in space..."

So we agree on one thing. If you have weak muscles, you will have weak bones. The bones will simply let the calcium flow out, because they don't need it, if the bone is not stimulated to retain or absorb calcium, from exercise and strong muscles.

Re: "I never said that high protein diet was healthy,..."

I guess jc and I were mistaken, perhaps due to all the times you said high protein is healthy.

Best regards, EngineerGuy
 
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crow89 replied to engineerguy's response:
I believe Heretk warned against too much calcium several times.

Are you the same Heretk that posted in a debate with Jeff around 08?
 
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crow89 replied to crow89's response:
I meant too much protein.
 
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heretk replied to jc3737's response:
It would save them money in the long run but it would lose them in the short run, which is what they (i.e government employees and politicians) are after.

Acidity (stomach) is increased by high starch diet since HCl is needed for breaking down starch into sugar. Calcium sequestration (including leaching from bones if there aren't enough) is prompted by glucose metabolism that requires Ca, Mg and Zn as microelements. One can induce diabetes (t2) symptom by feeding a high carb diet poor in those metals. It also requires large amounts of vitamin C, that's why it is important, on a high carbohydrate diet to consume real food (i.e. fruit and veg) that contain ascorbate, rather than fake manufactured high carb food that usually does not have it.

H.
 
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heretk replied to crow89's response:
Yes that's me, I got banned by McDougall around late 2008. Incidentally my last message there contained an advice to someone to up vitamin D3, K2 and A as a supplement. I would post it again, any time since it is very important! McDougall must have disagreed. I predict that one day many of his former patients and followers may come back to him with questions, on a forum that he would not be able to delete...

Regards,
Heretic

You can reach my blog by googling stan-heretic


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