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party line
jc3737 posted:
This is from the McDougall of many that have some problems on the diet...I find that vit D3 and iodine supplementation is also necessary ...along with daily B-12,500 mcg. Is B12 the only nutrient Issue? by berniek » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:17 pm
Tuesday will be my three year anniversary of becoming a vegan. I've followed the "rules" that I've learned from books by Dr. McDougall, Dr. Esselstyn the other gurus and promoters of this life style and overall I'm happy about my results.

The "party line" is that the only nutrient shortage that I have to be concerned with is B12, but only after several years. I'm now 78 ½ years old and when things don't feel "right" I start looking for reasons. As of late, I've been tired even though I get plenty of sleep at night. I've found sources that talk about thyroid issues that don't show up in routine testing. For instance I've read that many raw vegetables like broccoli, cauliflower, kale and a few others should be cooked because they contain a chemical called goitrogen that when eaten, raw, as I eat them, can block thyroid hormone production. There is no mention of cooked vs. raw in anything that I've read to date.

Most doctors that I know Poo-Poo the vegan diet so they probably can't help and Dr. Campbell says that the third highest causes of death in the U.S. are doctor visits and I've learned that the typical doctor, regardless of his specialty, has very little to contribute when it comes to vegan foods.

I'm looking for some words of wisdom regarding my concerns and would very much appreciate any input. Thank you
jc3737 responded:
From F1jim on the McDougall forum.He makes my point when I say some get carried away and require a near 100% devotion to the McDougall diet to be accepted into the McDougall family.F1Jim, did you ever read what Dr TC Campbell wrote about the Popper method and the need to constantly try to disprove what we believe about diet.

I wrote about the Popper/Einstein method as far back as 2006 on the diet debate board.

my diet: potatoes,brown rice,beans,steamed vegetables(mostly greens),1-3 nuts.1 tbs flaxseed...and a few berries...thats it...I have not broken the diet with any exceptions for over a year....but the diet does not clear up all problems and I still have some problems with the diet just as a great many do...

Instead of looking at potential problems and solutions you look for a religious like devotion to the diet......sorry thats never going to happen with me.....not even if the diet solved all of my problems.

Feel free to answer here...I have never reported or banned anyone...I like disagreement and controversy and I would never consider censorship.

I wish you would accept that challenging the diet is the best way to work out doubts and is the best from of SUPPORT.

I notice that insult is still your primary method of communication(some things never change) at least for those who are not devoted to the diet in a profound religious way.

"Perhaps that's the case as the 3 people that post over there need some help getting a discussion going. I think it's quite a stretch to imply a significant number of people have problems when following the diet. Even more of a stretch to use this post by berniek to try to reinforce that position. Yes, people do occasionally have issue they want help with. Usually those issues have little to do with the diet. To imply otherwise might make it easier to get a discussion going but useless for anything else.
anon9876 replied to jc3737's response:
jc, I didn't get who was saying what in the above. Are you a fan of the popper method or is Jim? Is it you or Jim who never banned anyone? Who said insult is your primary method of communication? Just couldn't follow who said what.

jc3737 replied to anon9876's response:
Dolores,f1jim and I have a history of conflict dating back years when posting on the diet debate board.F1 stormed on the board and called most of us "kool aide drinkers" if we did not accept a low fat vegan diet.F1 also said Heretic did all our thinking for us.

Several of F1s posts were taken down due to insults,but that had nothing to do with me.I have no idea if someone else reported the posts or they were just removed by the monitor.F1 left the diet debate board and went to Mcdougall.

I have written about the Popper method since 2006.It advocates trying to disprove your most cherished theories,beliefs,etc....and Dr TC Campbell mentioned it in a recent post on the McDougall board.It advocates pusing back against what you believe.

It was me that has never banned or reported anyone.I like disagreement too much to even consider that.

I don't know who banned Heretic from the McDougall board.You might ask F1jim.

I noted that f1jim was once again using insults as means of communication when he pointed out the low number of posters on this board....why even point that out except to insult....thats the one and only purpose of the comment.It is true but then that is obvious.However many more people read this message board than actually post.
engineerguy replied to jc3737's response:
Hi jc and Dolores,

I read the board because, as you say, the discussion and debate is engaging. Also, information is posted that I have not seen before. jc does an especially great job of that, and has provided some of my favorite studies. Some times I roll my eyes, that some beliefs are immutable. You can imagine that H and I share this view of each other.

Always keep it up.

Best regards, EngineerGuy
jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
Thanks,EG.F1 is right about the fact that many don't post here on a regular basis....not even Heretic.I have given some thought about shuttting the site down or just visiting once per week or once per month.I post on a number of other sites on a regular basis and only a very few realize how important it is to try to prove our own ideas wrong.Thats why I post many studies that are counter to the McDougall/Fuhrman style diets even though I eat only starch and vegetables.

I like to go against the grain and push back as Karl Popper suggests,but keeping the disagreement polite and free of insults.
anon9876 replied to jc3737's response:
jc, you said succinctly exactly why I like to argue (at the appropriate time and place) That is to prove my own ideas wrong. I really am not interested in proving someone else wrong.

engineerguy replied to anon9876's response:
Hi Dolores,

Re: "...That is to prove my own ideas wrong."

You mean, that's why men get married?

Best regards, EngineerGuy
anon9876 replied to engineerguy's response:
I'm certain of it.

engineerguy replied to anon9876's response:
Hi d

LOL !!

The other day, my wife and I were husband - wife bickering, and she said "Oh for crying out loud." Well, one of my brain cells wanted to give it right back to her, but another brain cell saw the inherent humor in the saying "for crying out loud". What does it actually mean? And, a 3rd brain cell thought maybe it would be good to break out of bickering. So, I laughed. We were both taken aback, and enjoyed the respite. Now we are both eager to use "For crying out loud" to break each other up.

We actually have a good time. Thanks for letting me relate this little story. Your wit has brightened our day many many times. Thanks for that.

Best regards, EngineerGuy

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