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Vegetarian actress - osteopenia
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Heretk posted:
Aged only 37! See: Gwyneth Paltrow suffering with bone condition

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Some journalists are speculating about whether Gwyneth's condition is linked to her alternative lifestyle which includes a strict fitness regime and a macrobiotic diet focusing on vegetables, pulses and fish and limiting dairy produce.

I would like to urge every vegetarian, especially with children, reading this post who are not yet familiar with our previous discussion on vitamin D: - please let your doctor test your D3 status and either take vitamin D3 supplements or change your diet!
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jc3737 responded:
I read that article on your web site.I hope D3 is enough to keep bones healthy.I wonder if there are cases of bone loss and high D3 levels.It may be more complicated than just D3 status.
 
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Heretk replied to jc3737's response:
Yes, probably K2 may also be required in addition to D3. Also it is even more complicated. Recent reseach showed that D3 is acting synergistically with A thus probably all 3 vitamins may have to be supplemented together. There is so much we do not know or aren't sure. Unlike our "friendly" vegan doctors who seem to know everything...
 
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Heretk replied to Heretk's response:
Alternative to supplementation is simply consume a lot of food that naturally contains all 3 vitamins: A, D3 and K2 ...
 
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dtms1 responded:
I just looked up macrobiotic diet and it looks just like the diet of the typical person eating a traditional Japanese diet. Do the Japanese eating their traditional diet have more osteoporosis than others?

She is not a vegetarian.

She weighs about twelve pounds.

I saw on one program that she exercises strenuously (with a trainer) a couple of hours a day. Excessive exercise can cause bone loss!! I don't know if this is true (I just read it on the net) or what is considered excessive exercise, but this one surprises me.

We're not going to be making health decisions by what some reporter says about what some actress or other purports to be doing, are we?

Dolores
P.S. I saw lights in the sky. It must be aliens. Everybody--flee to your basements. (Sorry, I have a strong aversion to Hollywood and the latest on what movie stars are up to.)
 
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EngineerGuy responded:
Hi Heretic,

I quite agree that people should get blood tested for vitamin D.

Changing their diet won't affect vitamin D much at all. Studies show that vitamin D deficiency is very common, even among sun worshipers on the beach. And these people are on the SAD. But a healthy vegan diet will not help nor hurt, with regard to vitamin D deficiency. Nor will your diet help, Heretic. I was deficient while taking 400 IU daily in a supplement, plus 60 minutes of sun daily, wearing only trunks.

Vitamin intake is important, but not adequate to retain or regain bone strength. To those reading, do you expect do simply take a vitamin pill, and do better than a healthy young astronaut? :-)

Healthy young astronauts lose 1 to 2% of their bone density every month, while in space (1). The paper attributes this to high sodium diet, and micro-gravity. How many of our elderly (and how many of us) are totally sedentary, and take a high sodium diet? If a healthy young astronaut will have calcium pour out of their body like this (the bones would crumble with a couple years), how can we expect to do better? Take a vitamin pill? Absurd. We need vigorous exercise, in addition to ensuring adequate vitamin D, and a diet with lots of greens, beans, etc. I highly recommend Dr. Fuhrman's DVD on osteoporosis. Since my hip bones are at the bottom of osteopenia myself, I have particular interest in this. If you are interested in osteoporosis, this DVD is a must.

Best regards, EngineerGuy

(1) http://www.congrex.nl/08a09/Sessions/23-06%20Session%202.htm
 
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Heretk replied to EngineerGuy's response:
Hi EG,

Unfortunately I cannot walk to a doctor's office and request a blood test for vitamin D, so I cannot really test the high fat diet. However, D3 defficiency seems to be symptomatic amopng vegan, in form of higher rheumathoid arthritis, lower resistance to infections and anomalious bone density, while none of those symptoms are being reported by people on the high fat diet (OD) or similar diets.

If vigorous exercize were the main bone building factor then you (also Jeff Novick and many other former and present vegans) wouldn't have had any problem with your borderline low bone density.

Once we are under normal gravity rather than in a spaceraft, I think the diet becomes a more important factor. I suspect wheat products. There seems to be a documented biochemical link between consumption of wheat aggluttins and impaired D3 transport: WGA binds and clogs D3 receptors (and also causes degeneration intestinal lining tissue). .

I think you have now a much better chance to improve your health since your diet has naturally cut down on wheat products and added oil from nuts. Fat seems to be an important factors in absorption of A (I have seen studies) and probably D3 from food (I don't have the studies but I have seen doctors reports that powdered D3 has much lower effect than D3 dissolved in oil).

Sun and D3 issue.

There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with skin of people on very low fat vegan diets. I have seen many complains about this although I have never seen a formal study on this topic. It is conceivable that they have some defficiency that damages their skin, which makes them far more sensitive to insolation and makes them suffer more easily from sunburns. It is conceivable that that defficiency may also impair the synthesis or transport of vitamin D3 in the skin.

I do not think that the old guidelines advising 15 minutes on the midday sun as being sufficient, are completely wrong. I think these guidelines were worked out in the past when people were consuming a different diet. I believe that sunlight does synthesize sufficient amount of D3 and I think that reports of vegans in Arizona (see McDougall's forum) suffering from ultra low D levels are an aberration caused by their diet.

Stan
 
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dtms1 replied to Heretk's response:
Lots of people in Arizona are D deficient believe it or not. I have family there. Just because it is sunny there doesn't mean people spend time in the sun or if they do they do it without slathering on sun block. Who wants to go outdoors in 110 degree weather? We go from our air conditioned houses to the air conditioned cars to the air conditioned shops and restaurants.

There are vegans and there are vegans. If a vegan is eating mostly grains then there could be a problem. But vegies (especially avocados which I can't eat) have boron which somehow amplifies D.

Dolores
 
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dtms1 replied to Heretk's response:
H, What are you eating that supplies D? Although I eat a plant based diet, I also eat canned wild caught sockeye salmon which has lots of D--about 900 per serving. Fish and fish oil contain D and so do mushrooms contain about as much D naturally as does a glass of fortified milk. Milk and cereals all have D added. It does not come in either the grains or milk from nature. So where in your high fat diet is the D coming from?

Dolores
 
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Heretk replied to dtms1's response:
Dolores,

D3 is present in all animal produce because it is in all animal tissues, although not everywhere in large amount. We eat fish, butter, lard, suet, cream, cheese, meat, organ meat (livers, hearts, kidneys, poultry skin, tongues, tendons etc). We render our own pork fat out of pork bellies (mince and leave in a slow cooker for 8h). Animal fat contains D3.

The food that you mentions on the other hand, contains D2 not D3, except salmon.

Most food products including low fat milk would be fortified with D2 because it is cheaper unless specifically labeled D3. Mushrooms I believe are also D2 (if I am wrong please let me know) . One may perhaps wonder why is that only low fat milk is fortified - because D3 naturally present in milk fat get skimmed out by the time you buy it. For that reason I would only recommend full fat milk or even bettter use 10% cream only! There is no point in buying low fat or skimmed milk - you get mostly lactose and caseine with the most valuable stuff taken out, with some useless D2 thrown in for the marketing.
 
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nycjudy responded:
A neighbor's child was recently diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency after breaking his arm twice in a short period of time. It was a real shocker for everyone. This kid (male, 12 yo, for what it's worth) is outside and active, the mother cooks healthy omnivorous meals (fast food is a treat) . . . unbelievable!
 
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Heretk replied to nycjudy's response:
nycjudy,

Does the kid drink lots of juices and pop? Fructose is one of the worst culprits for kids because it leads to overproduction of uric acid! There is a direct link between fructose consumption and hyper-uricemia. I have seen many studies on this. Uric acid may in turn cause lot of other problems including related to calcium balance (also kidney stones and gout for older adults!).

There was also a recent British study showing a direct link between low bone density among teenagers and consumption of high sugar beverages.
 
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jc3737 replied to Heretk's response:
But then fruit appears healthy....the bulk of the evidence I find shows fruit does not raise fasting blood glucose or A1C...and is correlated with lower FBG and A1C.

So fruit must be somehow different (at least functionally)than non fruit fructose.

I have also found this to be true for myself and I think i remember Dolores (who is diabetic) saying the same thing.

Those who say sugar is sugar or fructose is fructose don't look at all the data or account for its ability to help diabetics.
 
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nycjudy replied to Heretk's response:
I was thinking the exact thing later . . . well, about soda . . . the phosphoric acid. That could be. I'm not sure.
 
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geoffreylevens replied to nycjudy's response:
"Unfortunately I cannot walk to a doctor's office and request a blood test for vitamin D, so I cannot really test the high fat diet."


Anyone can get vit D tested. There are a number of internet sites you can go thru. They send test kit and it is just a finger stick and drop on blotter paper to mail in. Here's two... Actually I'm not sure but the LEF one may require you go to blood draw lab and have them take sample to mail in.


http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLC081950/Vitamin-D-25-Hydroxy-Blood-Test.html


http://www.zrtlab.com/vitamindcouncil/


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