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    Am I a paraphiliac?
    BrownEyedGirl0924 posted:
    This is so hard for me to ask but I need to know what is wrong with me. I have this weird Sexual Fetish to watch my husband sleep. Mostly I wait until he is in REM and I 'use this to my advantage'. I have become very coy about it and he doesn't even notice or wake up. Sometimes, my body will wake me up when he is in REM. Even though I am asleep, I can still hear him breathing so I wake up to do my 'thing'. I have got his sleep cycle down pat. Even if I can't see his face, I know he is in REM because of the way he is breathing. If it makes any difference, I have been masturbating since Kindergarden ( I am 28 now) and I haven't been abused in any way sexually or otherwise. This has become an addiction, I know. I have tried to stop and/or ignore the feeling or urge. The only way to do this is for me to sleep in another room which I don't like to do. This has become so bad that it is hard for me to get off during intercourse. I have to imagine him asleep and that he doesn't know what I am doing to him. I am not obsessed with death or anything like that. I don't like punk or heavy rock music. I have one tattoo. I DO NOT do drugs, except I do smoke cigarettes. Please help. I feel so alone. I have tried looking this subject up on numerous websites and have found no answers.
    Jeremy3456 responded:
    You have a very interesting paraphilia, if it can even be called that. For those who don't know, men have a strong natural erection when they're in REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. And assuming they're getting enough sleep, they usually wake up with one (the 'morning erection') because they're coming out of REM sleep at that time. I assume you're talking about sexually using his erection while he's asleep.

    My first question would be to ask what your regular sex life (when he's not asleep) is like. Perhaps you are enjoying him in that state because you can do your thing, fantasize, take as long as you like, do things you're embarrassed to do with him awake, or whatever. You could make a list of all the ways these sessions are different from sex when he's awake, such as these. Then see if you can incorporate some of those elements (such as taking as long as you like, or fantasizing) during waking sex.

    I've always heard that it's possible to have intercourse with one partner asleep and I apparently did that once with my first wife. It's strange, I know. It's surprising that the other person doesn't wake up.

    There are many, many ways for people to enjoy sex with one another. It all doesn't have to be focused on intercourse or 'conventional' sex. I wouldn't worry about this, really. Just be glad you are enjoying sex. There's an element of sneakiness or pseudo-voyeurism or whatever it might be called, but you have sexual rights to your husband.

    I am curious about a couple of things: does he ever tell you he's had a particularly sexy dream after your session? And has his need for waking intercourse gone down since you've started doing this? Does he ejaculate during these sessions?
    This resonates with me too because my fiancee has told me more than once that I can ejaculate on her when she's sleeping at night if I get the urge and don't want to wake her. I haven't done it yet. I'm afraid of her waking up during the act or her pretending she's asleep. But then again she wouldn't know what I'm thinking about at the time so it shouldn't be embarrassing. It could also be a messy surprise when she wakes up.
    Anon_125014 replied to Jeremy3456's response:
    My fiance and I both apparently have a horny as hell sub-conscious; and as a result, we have an understanding that one or both of us may start something while asleep if we're side by side. It's kind of hilarious when we wake up at approximately the same time and realize what we're doing--which is generally just short of penetration. The "what the hell?" expressions on our faces are priceless. We get a good laugh, and usually pick up where the dream left off.

    I've occasionally deliberately started something with my fiance if he's sleeping and he hasn't mentioned beforehand that he needs to rest (aka: no hanky-panky). Generally, just kissing & caressing him, before moving on to oral sex. A few seconds of my lips around him, a minute tops, and he's awake and ready to pounce. I checked with him the night before I did it the first time, and he agreed to try it out. Since then, we've both had a blast when I surprise him. He says it's his favorite wake-up call.

    My fiance prefers me awake. He will make absolutely certain I'm conscious before starting foreplay--and if he wakes up while beginning to fool around & I'm asleep, he'll wake me up before proceeding. I've told him that I wouldn't mind being woken up from the inside out--especially given what he lets me do to him--but the idea makes him uncomfortable. In the end, it doesn't really matter since I prefer being awake & I'm generally up for making love any time.
    BrownEyedGirl0924 replied to Jeremy3456's response:
    Our regular sex life is amazing. He satisfies me, if that is what you mean. And yes, I use his erection to turn me on and to get off. He knows I do it and sometimes it makes him upset. We have been together for 5 years and at first I wouldn't watch him sleep. I tried to tell myself that 'it's normal for him to sleep' which it is but that was my way of trying not to get into this habit with him. Just the other day when I did this to him, he said that he dreamt there were all kinds of women after his 'thing'. He said it was fun at first then it became too much, lol, whatever that meant. Sometimes he has dreams about sex, sometimes he is having a regular dream or a nightmare. These are the times that he usually wakes up because he says in his dream he has the erection and he is like, 'that isn't supposed to be there' so he wakes to find me playing with it. I guess he understands, in a way, but I can't make him look at it the way that I do. I have asked him to try it with me, to do what I do to him, but he has no interest in it. I think he would enjoy it, but I can't get him to try it. He doesn't ejaculate during these sessions. If he would, it would be AWESOME!! But I haven't gotten him to that point yet. But with every session, that is my goal. Even if he doesn't wake, he knows that I have played with his erection while he was asleep. He said its kinda like having blue-balls. He is sore and horney. I am only worried because even when we have regular sex, I fantasize about him being asleep for me to get off. He is a sexy man and I love him dearly. It's just that I crave the same kind of orgasm that I get from watching him in REM while his penis is inside me. I have not yet tried to put his erection inside me while he is sleeping. He told me that if he caught me doing that, that he would probably throw me in the floor from surprise and he would be mad at me. He refers to what I do as 'rape'. I don't think so but he says that he 'could', in theory, file a police report against me...? So that scares me too. I have police officers in the family, but they do not know what I do. Therefore, I do not want to ask if it is illegal or not.
    Anon_125014 replied to BrownEyedGirl0924's response:
    Legally, having sex with someone while they're unconscious can be considered rape because they were not able to give consent. In your specific case, given that he's already explicitly told you you do NOT have his consent, it is rape if you proceed to have sex with him while he's sleeping--there is no longer any sort of gray area. He could file charges, and he could make them stick.

    I am sorry that the two of you disagree on this issue--but please, accept his warning in the spirit with which it was delivered. He considers the activity rape, and if you have sex with him against his wishes, it IS. Perhaps you could bring a chair or something into the bedroom, and when you notice he's hit REM, leave the bed, go to the chair, and do your thing while watching him sleep. It won't be the same as touching him, but at least you'd be respecting his wishes, and you wouldn't be risking legal action or further strain on your marriage.
    fcl replied to BrownEyedGirl0924's response:
    Believe it - he CAN file a report against you because it IS rape. Taking advantage of a person who is not in a state to consent is rape right down the line.

    @ Jeremy - what do you mean by she has "sexual rights" to her husband? If you mean that she can do what she wants even if he doesn't like it then your thinking is more than antiquated. It implies that there is no such thing as rape between husband and wife when there absolutely is.
    There's nothing inherently dirty about sex, but if you try real hard and use your imagination you can overcome that.
    Jeremy3456 replied to fcl's response:
    A spouse has a right to (consensual) sex with their husband/wife. Not giving it is legal grounds for divorce. The language varies from state to state; 'failure to consummate', etc.

    But certainly, abuse goes both ways out there in the world. It's not always men abusing women.

    From the BrownEyedGirl's post I kind of doubt if he was serious about filing a rape charge against her. Even if he did, he would probably be laughed out of the police station. It would be embarrassing and people would ask 'what's wrong with what she did - it's every man's dream!' Especially the 20 percent or so of people in sexless marriages. You can imagine the late night talk show hosts making jokes about this.

    It would also be difficult to prove. The justice system almost always takes the side of the woman as a victim. Her lawyer would make the case that she was a poor sexually frustrated wife or whatever, and that he actually gave consent and they were naked together in bed, etc. She could even say that he rolled on top of her and he did it to her. And he was not unconscious; he was asleep. Big difference. (I'm still amazed that this can happen with one partner asleep).

    I would not call this abuse or rape. If she sat on a chair watching him asleep and masturbated, would you classify that as some illegal act, too, such as voyeurism? Besides, he gave a general "consent" by marriage vows and the common-sense interpretation that marriage will involve sex.

    Instead, I think the husband was a bit miffed that he was being, well, "f*@ked with" (pun intended) when he had no control over his sexual performance. It sounds like that kind of a reaction to me. Men like to please their partner but they like to be the ones doing it.

    In any event, from a psychological viewpoint this is a very, very interesting case. He has sexually-themed dreams when this is going on, which agrees with research that has been done on sleeping subjects getting various tactile or scent stimuli which then becomes part of their dreams.

    They have an "amazing" sex life when awake. I don't know if I would call her activity a paraphilia. It's not quite voyeurism. Frotteurism maybe, but again he is asleep so he doesn't really experience it. I wonder if it could lead to her becoming disinterested or anorgasmic from regular, waking sex, which she is worried about happening. There is a known paraphilia of having sex with a corpse called necrophilia (which I believe is illegal). I've also heard of one sex partner dressing and acting like they're dead when the other one does them, or taking a cold bath beforehand so their skin will be cold. But this is something different.

    As I posted to her earlier, she could break down her nighttime activity into its constituent elements and get him to incorporate some of those elements in waking sex. There's nothing wrong with trying to please your partner. I suspect there's an element of her having a sexual thrill from being able to do what she wants and having control. She might therefore enjoy blindfolding him or trying some domination/submission activities, if he would agree. Or he could simply pretend to be asleep---although that might not quite do it if her particular fantasy here is of him being unaware of what she's doing.

    Paraphilias are very rarely diagnosed in women. Most paraphilias, by definition to be a disorder, must cause significant distress or harm to self or someone else. But many women engage in paraphilias (consensually). It's hard to tell if this is exactly consensual; by its very nature with one person being asleep, they can't give consent at that moment. But if she did this while he was awake it doesn't sound like he would object to it.

    I also understand that some people don't remember anything they did while being drunk. I can't imagine that in myself; lowered inhibition yes but not total amnesia. Interesting.
    fcl replied to Jeremy3456's response:
    Sorry, Jeremy, but if you have sex ONCE then your marriage is consummated. Your marriage vow do not, under any circumstances, represent "consent" any time your spouse wants sex. If your spouse cannot (for whatever reason there may be) consent to sex and you persist in having sex with him/her regardless then you are guilty of rape.

    "Even if he did, he would probably be laughed out of the police station. "

    And there is the tragedy of closed-mindedness...

    Neither of us can possibly know whether he'd press charges or not (not having been there). Personally, I wouldn't take the risk.
    There's nothing inherently dirty about sex, but if you try real hard and use your imagination you can overcome that.
    BrownEyedGirl0924 replied to fcl's response:
    Wow. I didn't know that my question would cause so much controversy. I do want to clear a few things up tho.

    The one time he did mention that it was 'rape' he was very upset because he had been woken up. He was sick, I think, and he was tired and wanted to be left alone. He hasn't mentioned it since. Except to joke around, ie. 'Did you rape me last nite? My balls hurt.'

    He has woken up while I was doing playing with him and just turned it into sex. I have been doing this to him for so long that I guess his body wakes him up if he is alert enough or horney eonough. Most of the time tho, he doesn't wake up. I will even lie there for another hour and a half if I have to, awake, waiting for his next REM cycle.

    I know that touching his body parts in a sexual manner is considered a form of sex... but I haven't actually had intercourse with him in this state.

    As far as actually filing them, the charges for rape, he won't at this point. I have went months without doing this to him on purpose. My husband doesn't masturbate, AT ALL! I thought he was lying when he first told me that not long after we met, but after living with him for 5 years, I KNOW that he doesn't. I dated a guy once that masturbated every morning, every day, and most of the time, every nite before bed. I know the sounds and I know the signs of him trying to hide it. I went without because my husband told me that I have 'conditioned' myself to only get the BIG 'o' MY way. Because of my constant masturbating, I can't acheive a big 'o' from intercourse with him. He suggested that I do without to 'up' my orgasm. I went probably 3-4 months, no masturbating, no watching him in REM, nothing except the sex that we did have. It actually made my sex drive worse. So, I think he understands that I am just 'psychotic' (Lol) at this point and that I kind of need it. He jokes that if I went to a therapist and told them what was going on, they would put me in a straight jacket.

    And, yes, I have figured out that it is the control factor for me. I do like dominating him. I don't like to be submissive to him, but I do so that we are both giving and taking.

    Our sex life is just as good as it was when we first met. It happens a little less now but it is still just as exciting as the first time.

    I guess that is all for now... Any more questions, let me know.
    Anon_125014 replied to BrownEyedGirl0924's response:
    Always being the submissive partner in the bedroom against your preference isn't allowing you to both 'give and receive'--it is deliberately, continually sacrificing what you need for sexual fulfillment--and it doesn't satisfy you. So much so that you sought an outlet by dominating your partner while he slept--which is leaving you open to all kinds of damaging statements from your parter--ex:"rape", "psychotic".

    Try taking the lead in the bedroom occasionally while you're both awake---something along the lines of "Just lay back honey, relax, and enjoy". Dominance doesn't need to be solely the role of one partner, you can trade off.
    fcl replied to BrownEyedGirl0924's response:
    Sorry to have gotten a bit bogged down in the rape part but it makes me sad to think that women have spent centuries trying to be taken seriously about rape (and there are still very few who report it) and that men are still be riduculed for violation of their bodies. It's not fair and it's not funny. My comments had a lot less to do with you that with others who treated the situation flippantly.
    There's nothing inherently dirty about sex, but if you try real hard and use your imagination you can overcome that.
    Jeremy3456 replied to BrownEyedGirl0924's response:
    Thank you, BrownEyedGirl, for clarifying those things. I am certain that your husband could be masturbating if he wanted to. How would you know? He could do it a work, while in the shower, etc. and you would never know. I would bet that he occasionally does, but from way you describe the quality of your relationship, he doesn't have to very often. You have a very fluid sex life that can switch from sleeping to sex easily with no big boundaries to cross or careful matching of moods being required.

    Have you ever had this nocturnal interest with a boyfriend in the past? When and how did this start? The domination angle is interesting. Does he not like to submit? Has he tried dominating you?

    I have observed that women tend to 'reset' their sexual kinks with each new boyfriend, whereas men are more persistently into whatever kink they have with every new partner. That's a general observation only, doesn't apply to every person and of course people may choose the same type of partner again and again, which satisfies certain needs over and over again.

    I'm just wondering that if you had a different boyfriend in the past (or god forbid a different husband in the future), if this nighttime need of yours would (or did) disappear because you could satisfy your needs completely during waking sex. A different partner, different style, different inhibitions and different freedoms; our sexual style will manifest itself in different ways between one partner and the next.

    In fact this would be a good topic for a new discussion thread, and I think I'll start one!

    And it seems your husband jokes about having you arrested or put in a straightjacket by using extreme conclusions, which I assume are in a joking tone that you both laugh about. You're not psychotic, not a paraphiliac, and not going to be charged with rape! So I think those concerns can be---pun intended here---laid to rest.
    BrownEyedGirl0924 replied to Jeremy3456's response:
    Thank you, Jeremy3456.

    I can tell you that I started masturbating in Kindergarden. It was also focused on sleep... Why, I do not know. I wouldn't sleep during nap time. I would watch the kids that slept around me and play with their hands (their hands were limp because of sleep, nothing perverted... well this whole darn thing is perverted isn't it?). My grandparents raised me and we used to go to car shows, my grandfather had a 1940 2-door Chevy, Pearl white with window etches and black painted 'trim lines'. My grandmother told me that I would hump anything. She said she had to pull me off of a rock one time. I remember it. I was maybe 4-5 years old and the rock was HUGE and stuck up out of the ground. I just went and stradled it and started humping. I didn't think about anyone watching me or cared if anyone saw. There were a lot of people there.
    I didn't know about the REM cycle until years later in high school. I still watched people sleeping and got off on that. I would even imagine myself asleep and think up these little gnomes that lived in my room and they wanted to see me orgasm so they would sneak up and maneuver me into a masturbating position... really freakin weird, right?
    The first time I actually saw REM was on a TV screen in Psychology class. My stomach immediately had butterflies. I didn't worry too much about it tho, I just went on my normal life. One day, sometime later, I was at a boyfriends house. We were down in his room and decided to take a nap. His parents were very trusting and didn't mind that we be in a room alone. I woke up before he did and turned to say something to him and I stopped with my mouth hanging open, the words on the tip of my tongue. His eyes were darting back and forth in his head. I called his name a few times and he didn't respond, his eyes just kept darting around in his head. So, I masturbated, right then and there. He woke up and I told him that he was just in REM and he was like 'really?' I explained to him what it looked like and he seemed pretty interested... but only for a few days.
    We eventually broke up. I went back to my ex. We lost our virginity to each other so we were really comfortable together. This is where the whole nighttime thing started. This guy was like a self proclaimed mechanic so he had quite a few Maglites, the small ones that take two AA batteries. I started hiding one under my pillow and used it to watch him. I still wasn't quite sure how REM worked, a lot of times I just masturbated to him being asleep. One morning I woke up before him and he was breathing fast, but deep like he was running but wasn't quite out of beathe yet. I watched for a minute and his eyes were moving. So I asked myself if he was hard. He was lying on his back, so I slid my hand under the covers to where his thing would be and, sure enough, like a rock. So i started seeing what I could do. How far can I go with out him waking up? I just kept pushing myself. I got my hand in his boxers and wrapped my hand around it.... I reposistioned his arm so that I was lying on top of it with his fingers in my underwear.... Eventually, I could get on top of him, girl on top style, and hump him that way. All while he was still in REM. This stuff takes time though. I have to move slowly and I can't touch too softly or he will think there is something crawling on him and he will wake up to smack it. I can't move too fast or he might rouse and roll away from me. He eventually found out what I was doing and he wanted to try it on me. He did one morning, and it was the best thing ever. I was dreaming that I was on a roller coaster, but his hand was in my underwear playing with me while I was in REM....
    Dang, I only got 106 characters left. Lol! Anyway, that is how it started. Let me know if you need anything else Jeremy3456. And thank you for listening. I know that this isn't a normal fetish and like I said in my original post, I just feel so alone.
    wonderingaboutthis responded:
    Brown Eyed Girl,

    I have been reading this thread with a great deal of curiosity and interest. My first impression was that the discussion regarding rape and so forth seems so cold. I firmly believe that a husband can rape his wife and vice versa and that it is just as egregious as if a stranger broke ito the house and raped one of you. The letter of the law says what you're doing is technically rape, but I think that in your case, calling this rape is a bit of a stretch and sort of mocks the true cases of rape.

    I confess to not having read the entire thread carefully, but am I right when I boil this down to (1) you have an unusual masturbation stimulus that you love, using your sleeping husband as a vehicle for your masturbation and orgasm, and (2) that your husband is not exactly appreciative of your penchant for jilling off while he sleeps?

    If this is the case, I don't see why as a married couple who loves each other you couldn't come to some common ground wherein you get your cookies in a way you enjoy, and at the same time your husband finding a way to accomodate at least some of your fetish and get some enjoyment too.

    Does your husband enjoy giving you oral sex? I'm assuming he does, most men do. If so, maybe the following would help you both get some pleasure.

    When we were frst married, I worked midnights and slept days. She would always wake me about 3pm. I usually came out of REM sleep with a very hard and throbbing erection, as well as in a rather "horny" state. I normally slept on my back.

    One day instead of just shaking my shoulder to wake me she stripped off her pants and panties, and quietly squatted in a 69 position directly over my face. She brought her genitals as close as she possibly could to my face, but without touching my lips or nose with her labia. This act was an extreme visual tease to herself, and she kept it up for several minutes. As she became more aroused with the tease, she would just barely brush my lips with her labia, so lightly I didn't really even notice, but enough that she could just feel it. She continued on, becoming extremely aroused, to the point she was lubricating very heavily. She watched as her juices collected on her labia, and finally drippped into my partially open mouth. She said visually this was so hot to her she was ready to orgasm just from watching her juices drip onto me. She didn't touch herself, just watched me sleep as she was painting little trails of her juices across my lips and into my mouth.

    While this was going on, I distinctly remember moving into this vividly sexual dream, I was in a room with a long table, upon which were a least a dozen young sexy women lying on their backs with their legs spread wide and ther genitals right at the edge of the table. I was moving from woman to woman, looking, tasting, and slowly licking their genitals, and reveling in their individual and unique musky sex scents and their heavily flowing juices. It was heavenly to me, to be sure. I am sure now it was the scent of my wife's genitalia and juices that triggered the dream.

    Finally she could take no more teasing of herself and sat right down on my face, smearing her genitals across my mouth and face and grinding her clit against my nose, I woke up in one of the most sexually exciting sets of circumstances I had ever been in. She was ravenous, and I went directly from the very sexually charged dream into reality that was just as hot. My face buried in her soaking wet crotch, I was literally right on the edge of orgasm. As soon as I began to moan "mmmmmmm" she bent forward, deep throated my penis, and we both immediately went over the edge into mind-numbing orgasm. She kept sucking and swallowing, and I licked her clit feverishly through her intense orgasm.

    This was awesome for us, and I just wonder if you "pulling this" on your husband might not just spark his interest in your fetish enough to explore several variations with you.
    Jeremy3456 replied to BrownEyedGirl0924's response:
    You may feel alone, BrownEyedGirl, but your story is fascinating. I have a creative mind when it comes to sex and it occurred to me that the sexual practices you describe could be used by other people to bring more sexual pleasure into their lives.

    I can imagine a device that one attaches to their genitalia with an electrical lead also attached to the scalp. It would be programmed to stimulate the genitals with a mechanical vibrator-type thing when they enter REM sleep. I'm a firm believer that some people get more sexually inhibited from simply not being sexually active enough. Having sexual stimulation enter one's dreaming state would connect sexual sensations with their unconscious thoughts about other people and situations. It would be a way to explore sexual feelings about people that you're dreaming about as sort of a primer to doing the same thing in real, waking life with someone.

    I had a friend who said if he ever had some wishes that could magically be granted, one of them would be to be able to enter people's dreams. What you describe with your boyfriend is almost doing that!

    When I occasionally have an intense sexual dream, it stays with me all day or for several days. The thought of it bounces around in my mind. If it was about someone I know then look at them differently and almost expect to get the same sexual response from them as I did in my dream. It's like the dream expresses some unconscious thought of wanting to be sexual with them, or it picks up on a sexual cue from them that I had not paid attention to consciously. I wonder if they've noticed that I looked at them differently; maybe my pupils got wider and they picked up on that. Being able to induce dreams like this could have therapeutic use for shy people, or certainly recreational use.

    You may have inspired a new business model: sex dreaming machines. There already are remote-controlled vibrators on the market. I wonder if anyone has used one while sleeping and had their partner turn it on when they're dreaming?

    After you've done this with your husband has he ever described having a dream that involved inappropriate or unwanted sex? Or anything really weird?

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