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    Dr W. Davis
    jc3737 posted:
    I asked Dr Davis to comment on "Forks Over Knives".Here is his answer.

    Yes, Denise Minger does a great job, citing issues that I would have cited, also.
    As always, nutritional thinking falls into this trap: If something or some practice that is bad is replaced with something less bad, then more of the less bad thing must be good. If the standard American diet is replaced with a plant-based, low-fat diet and there are apparent benefits, then this diet must be the ideal.
    False logic. And the notion that the diet advocated by Esselstyn et al reverses coronary disease is a fiction. This is a whole conversation in itself. Perhaps a topic for future!"
    twinb63 responded:
    Fiction? I wonder if he's seen the before and after pics of that artery from one of the patients, the physician I think it was, on the front page of Essy's website. Maybe 'reverses coronary disease' has a different meaning to different people. I wish Davis would write his views on this issue in some detail with supporting documentation.

    Anyway, I think his point about genetically modified wheat is a good one; I certainly have seen the difference in my body since I stopped eating it.
    heretk replied to twinb63's response:
    The "reversal" Ornish or Esselstyn demonstrated by measuring the plaque thickness is marginal. About a couple percentage point reduction if I remember the Ornish paper correctly. In contrast, Davis demonstrated a huge reduction (like of the order of 50% in some cases, again I am quoting him from memory) in plaque by his reduced carbs, no wheat, fish oil etc diet. He measured with the Agatston's Calcium Score method.
    DoloresTeresa replied to heretk's response:
    Agatston is on statins. Are pictures of Davis's 50% blockage reduced arteries available on the internet? If he is getting results like that in the same time frame he bears listening to. I would think that such reports would produce tv shows with these now healthy people being scrutinized by whoever.

    jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
    (The FASEB Journal. 2008;22:1092.15.)
    ? 2008 FASEB
    1092.15 Progression and Regression of Coronary Calcium Score William R. Davis1 and Susie W. Rockway2
    1 Medical Director, Milwaukee Heart Scan,, Private Practice, Wauwatosa, WI
    2 Clinical Nutrition, Rush University Medical Center, Chicago, IL
    Serial calcium scoring obtained by CT scanning has been proposed as a means of following progression or regression of coronary atherosclerotic plaque. In an open-label study, we combined pharmaceutical lipid treatment with dietary supplementation in patients presenting with coronary calcium (Agatston) scores 50 to test the impact on progression or regression of annual plaque growth as measured by serial coronary calcium scoring in a cohort of 45 men and women. Treatment included statin therapy, niacin, the American Heart Association Therapeutic Lifestyle Changes (TLC) diet, omega-3 fatty acids and vitamin D-3 supplementation at levels to achieve target fasting lipid values of: LDL cholesterol 60 mg/dl, HDL 60 mg/dl and triglycerides of 60 mg/dl and a serum level of 25-OH-vitamin D3 of 50 ng/ml. All atherogenic lipids were significantly reduced when tested 1 to 2 years after treatment (p<0.001). Total cholesterol dropped by 23%, LDL-c by 37%, TG by 29% while HDL significantly (p<0.001) increased by 18%. Unexpectedly, 21 subjects demonstrated reduced calcium plaque burden as evidenced by a percent decrease in coronary calcium scores (ranges from 0 to —64%), while 21 experienced slowing of progression (mean 12%), defined as less than 30% increase in calcium score (ranges 0.95% to 29%), while only 3 subjects continued to progress at a rate greater than 30%. In conclusion, though wide variation in response following this approach is seen, substantial regression of atherosclerotic coronary plaque using a CT calcium scoring approach is achievable with treatment efforts that extend beyond LDL cholesterol
    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    Wait a minute. He used statins and niacin. Not just his recommended diet.

    Here is what I found when I googled calcium scoring and regression of plaque:

    At this time calcium scoring is not recommended for serial assessments over time to document the progression of established CAD. The data just aren't available yet to support this approach.

    You could get a high score from a test even if your arteries are not blocked. Not all blocked arteries have calcium. A low test score may make you feel safe even if you are at risk.

    Scores over 100 mean you are likely to have heart disease. I add-- dropping from 400 to 200 means you could still have heart disease.

    To continue--Soft plaque can't be found with a coronary calcium scan. If you have soft plaque the test may give normal results. This is a false negative result. Build up of soft plaque can cause a heart attack. This procedure is not advised for routine screening.

    It is possible to have a false positive test (showing high blockage). People with a low chance of heart disease are most likely to have a false positive.

    Conventional risk factors along with age and sex affect CAC scores.

    The aim is still to lower LDL and other risk factors.

    CAC score analysis confirm that hypertension, diabetes, smoking and high cholesterol, age and male sex are independent predictors of coronary artery calcification.

    High cholesterol is less strongly associated with extent of CAC than other risk factors and perhaps this reflects effective medical treatment of hypercholesterolemia.

    There is no pharmaceutical therapy for prevention or regression of arterial calcification. However, I also read that greater than 32 mcg K2, not K1, and fermented foods and meat from animals fed K3 increase bone density and at the same time reduce calcium in the arteries.

    heretk replied to DoloresTeresa's response:

    Davis underwent a real evolution in his approach in the last few years (just like Fuhrman who used to be low fat strict vegan and now he is neither). Davis begun with a cholesterol reduction (statins, nevertheless he did advise caution against overuse!) and omega-3 supplementation because of the Lyon Study results. Then he shifted towards wheat elimination (but not low carb yet) but kept talking about the "harmful
    small dense LDL". Now he is advocating full low carb(*) and all the other things, and he no longer mentions statins. He no longer seems focused on statins or LDL small or whatever. That is what he wrote in his today's blog post :

    In other words, in the people who follow the basic advice of the Track Your Plaque program to do such simple things as eliminate wheat, don't indulge in junk carbohydrates, normalize vitamin D status, supplement omega-3 fatty acids, supplement iodine and correct any thyroid dysfunction . . . well, they have no heart attacks.

    You see: no statin mention at all!



    *) I often wonder if that may have been due to some "bad" influence of some people?
    jc3737 replied to heretk's response:
    But I can not find any sci study of any of his work,other than the one I posted that showed some supression of calcium score growth..Calcium score does have a correlation with cardio events but its not absolute.I posted on that correlation several yrs ago,

    I think all of the gurus have moved away from statins.and both groups claim no heart attacks.
    DoloresTeresa replied to jc3737's response:
    H, I meant in Davis's study he used statins and niacin.

    I do not doubt that the people featured in Forks Over Knives improved their health. Time will tell if the improvement is real and lasts.

    I have just finished reading a book called The New Evolution Diet by Arthur De Vany who gives examples of a month of his menus. Lots of meat at every meal, a little cheese and a little olive oil, lots of vegetables, no wheat or rice or corn or potatoes but he does eat some squashes and an occasional yam (not a sweet potato). His exercise program seems unique to me--intense by sporadic. He looks great at 72. His HDL is 92, his LDL is 98. His food pyramid has water at the base followed vegetables followed by meat and seafood followed by fruits, followed by nuts, good oils and other healthy fats followed by fresh spices. So with those values I guess what he does is working for him.

    If Davis allows fish on his diet I am wondering why he recommends supplementing with omega threes.

    None of the anti grain people have explained why there are so many traditional cultures who subsist on mostly grains and are long lived. He uses the Inuit as an example of hearty people who eat lots of fat and meat but the Inuit are not particularly long lived. He said the American Indian ate four pounds of buffalo a day. I do not know how long lived they were either. De Vany says that eating grains interferes with reproduction. Which makes me wonder where a couple of billion Asians came from.


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