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    Happy new year!
    heretk posted:
    Where is everybody?
    crow89 responded:
    I'm still here and check in most days but find nothing to read!I'm very intersted in the debate between high fat and high carb
    and would appreciate your input.I post all the time in the McDougall lounge but they are starting to suspect I'm not really on board so I have to be careful.You would not believe the large number of long term McDougallers that have all manner of problems but no one seems to connect the dots.See if you can fire up the debate here and give me something to read.Thanks,Crow
    max9821 responded:
    RE where is everybody. H, every now and then webmd makes me sign in again and when I try to they reject my e mail address and pass word. So I have to start over again and then they say that such and such a part of my sign in is used by someone else and usually that someone else is me. So I get disgusted and say the heck with it.

    In answer to crow, many of the problems are due to food allergies. An elimination diet usually seems to do the trick. And maybe the diet just isn't right for some. On the other hand, someone posted on this group that she has been using the paleo diet for two years and enumerated her health problems then went on to say she is sticking to it because she believes it is the best way to eat. So sticking to something despite its not seeming to work is not unique to either McDougallers or paleo dieters.

    I posted on the mcd board that we tend to use surrogate endpoints such as cholesterol levels, blood pressure etc. to determine if the diet is doing its job. The real test of our lifestyle are clinical endpoints like death, MI, stroke.

    When I was 50 years old and overweight for many years I was diagnosed with t2 diabetes. I was lulled into complacency by my subsequent very excellent blood sugar numbers which I achieved by slowly losing weight over the years and exercising. I was mostly plant based but experimented with olive oil, wild caught salmon and mackerel, eggs on occasion and junk food which unfortunately I found irresistible when babysitting my grandchildren at my daughter's house. When I was 68 in 2012 I suffered an MI after eating lots of salty ham at an easter dinner, ( I made the connection but I could be wrong) got religion and have been oil free and strictly herbivorous whole food only every since. What my chances are now that I have a drug eleuting stent in place I do not know. They are subject to blood clots and restenosis. And I am taking no meds for heart or diabetes.

    I did not have a heart attack for sixty eight years despite being diabetic for the previous twenty. I know many people on the SAD who live into old age although some are on lots of meds but seem to function just fine despite illnesses. Some people will do great no matter what they eat or the lifestyles they pursue. Perhaps they are just first prize winners in the gene pool lottery.

    H, I assume you are younger than I because you have children still living at home. Let me just say that I thought I was somehow immune to diabetes because was fat yet untouched by it for so many years. What stupid thinking. And I was not extra careful (although more careful than most) despite the fact that I knew diabetics were more susceptible to heart disease. After all, I did not suffer from heart disease (I thought) with all those years of being diabetic. You see many members of NAAFA, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance, insist we can be healthy at any size. Most of the spokespersons are young and I wonder about the meds that the older people might be on. Will that seemingly healthy thirty or forty year old fat person be singing the same song at fifty?

    So far as I know, the only way to know for sure if your diet and lifestyle are protecting you from artery disease is to have an angiogram and a follow up angiogram to see if there is improvement. Or maybe an ultrasound of the carotid arteries.

    And a Happy New Year to you too.

    engineerguy replied to crow89's response:
    Hi Crow,

    I followed the Pritikin diet for 30 years, and I was lactose intolerant, so I believe I was identical to McD for the 30 years. I was strict for the last 2 years, after seeing that my less strict adherence to the program, was not preventing my cholesterol from going too high. An IMT test showed that I had beginning atherosclerosis getting worse, during the last 2 years strict on the Pritikin diet.

    I changed to the Fuhrman Eat To Live diet and got better results, reversing some "lipid inclusions" (fat pockets) in the artery wall.

    Oh, you are comparing to the high fat diet, perhaps as Heretic has advocated. Let me search for some earlier posts on this board.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    engineerguy replied to engineerguy's response:
    Hi Crow,

    Are you interested in an Atkins style diet, or Paleo?

    Dr. Atkins died early, obese, and suffered from heart disease, and may have died of a stroke. We don't know exactly what he died of, because his family fought in court to keep his health information a secret, and then sold the Atkins name for many millions of dollars, to the diet industry.

    Jimmy Moore published a diet book about losing weight on an Atkins style diet. Then he regained all the weight. The Atkins diet has more problem with regaining weight, than other diets. We know this from the Weight Control Registry.

    Here's comments about the Masai:

    Here is his abstract:
    American Journal of Epidemiology Vol. 95, No. 1: 26-37 Copyright ? 1972 by The Johns Hopkins University School of Hygiene and Public Health research-article
    GEORGE V. MANN, ANNE SPOERRY, MARGARETE GARY and DEBRA JARASHOW Mann, G. V. (Vanderbilt Univ. School of Medicine, Nashville, Tenn. 37203), A. Spoerry, M. Gray, and D. Jarashow. Atherosclerosis in the Masai. Am J Epidemiol 95: 26—37, 1972.—

    The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions(1). The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men(2). The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease(3). It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious(4).

    My notes:

    (1) Extensive atherosclerosis with lipid (fat) infiltration and fibrous changes - YuK !! This is a sick, diseased artery wall. "but very few complicated lesions" = few plaques causing blockages.

    (2) which equaled that of old U.S. men. Old US men have severe atherosclerosis. This is a dramatic reversal of Dr. Mann's earlier statements and belief, that the Masai had healthy arteries. Clearly, he is making the shocking statement that the Masai have more atherosclerosis than the average american, of the same age.

    (3) the arteries enlarge to compensate for this DISEASE. Note the word disease.

    (4) Dr. Mann speculates that since the Masai are very lean, exercise a great deal, walk 20 miles a day tending their herds, and are very fit, the arteries enlarge to compensate for the thickening artery wall.

    My aside: For any person who wants to emulate the Masai, based on posts by folks like Heretic, if you don't walk 20 miles a day, if you are not thin as a rail, if you EVER eat white flour and any SAD foods, you will have diseased arteries, AND complicated lesions (blockages) and heart attacks.

    This was Dr. Mann's last publication on the subject, after a study he designed to settle the question once and for all, with 50 autopsies.

    (Got to run... )

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    engineerguy replied to engineerguy's response:
    Hi Crow,

    Diet Book authors who get rich on low-carb dangerous diet books, are fair game!

    Be sure to watch both videos on Jimmy Moore, the low carb diet guru, about 2 minutes each.

    Dr. Atkins had heart disease (oh, a virus). He was obese and probably died of a stroke. His family fought in court to keep his autopsy and poor health secret, and then sold the Atkins name as a health diet, probably for hundreds of millions of dollars.

    On the other hand, the doctors I follow, plant based diet, are successful.

    Check click on Your Health - Health Benefits or Scientifically Proven Results

    Check Click on articles/studies

    I have the best results with

    similar programs Ornish diet (You know this one...)

    And, do not skip this video.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    crow89 replied to engineerguy's response:
    How are you doing engineerguy?I did check out the links you posted but I have been following this site for years and am well aware of your position,didis,and jcs.However Heretics arguments are more convincing to me especially when combined with my own personal experience.Another thing that convinces me is the large number of posters I communicate with either directly or by PMs that have had nothing but failure with the McDougall WOE.
    jc3737 replied to engineerguy's response:
    Great links EG.I would really like to know who is right between McDougall and Fuhrman on the low fat concept.Fuhrman says the benefits come from eating a diet high in nutrients (fruits and vegetables...not too much starch).McDougall says that avoiding fat is the real benefit and eating starch is the way to go.

    I split the difference and eat tons of starch but also tons of greens(collards and greenleaf lettuce) and a cup of beans daily.I need the starch for calories to keep weight on.

    Over the holidays I had Turkey and lots of green bean casorole loaded with tons of digestion greatly improved for those few days....not a tough of GERD that sometimes comes with fiber,berries,brown rice,and beans.

    jc3737 replied to crow89's response:
    Crow,When you take a look at the Paleo gurus they all seem to be fat while the plant based gurus are all thin.Thats not to say the plant based guys are healthier.....we will not know that for a few years when Dr Mcdougall,Campbell,Essee,Fuhrman reach their early 90s and are still alive and healthy.Noted high fat guru Dr GV Mann recently passed away at the age of 99....strong and healthy to the end so thats one for you.

    And how do the current plant based guys compare to the paleo/high fat guys.....but for the present time you have to admit the plant based guys are leading....but final results are not in.
    max9821 replied to jc3737's response:
    despite his pictures in the vegsource videos which make him look fat, Loren Cordaine looks like a big guy but not fat. Mark Sisson is certainly not fat. I am sure there are others who espouse paleo who are not fat. Atkins was fat and sick. Jimmy Moore got fat on atkins but still has fans. He lost weight on nutritional ketosis but this involves lots of fasting. He is not worried about his cholesterol numbers. Will he stay slim now that he has lost weight on NK? Sally Fallon is not sylph like but she does not look obese to me. Milton Mills, an excellent plant based speakers looks quite stocky. I don't know what all this means but I do know that I lost weight on wfpb no fat.

    And of course, if someone is making money from advocating a certain diet that does not mean that he is actually consuming the diet he writes about.

    I also think that H is a pretty smart cookie and his woe seems to be working for him. I just haven't bought into consuming a very high fat diet especially since the MI. I do know there have been reports of death on some on the Atkins diet and at least one person sued him because of poor health as a result of reading his book and following his advice. He lost on the grounds of freedom of the press. Apparently you can advocate for anything you want with impunity.

    jc3737 replied to max9821's response:
    And Dr McDougall may one day be sued by someone whose health worsenes due to digestive issues.We are not going to know who is right for another 10 years when we can compare the health of the various gurus.

    It strikes me as unusual that the avg life span is not all that different in the various parts of the world and that people who eat a plant based diet all their lives really don't live all that much longer....but they do live longer its just the differece is not as great as one whould suspect.Do they live healthier....not really.Im constantly amazed at the many hundreds of people i meet that live healthy lives well into their late 80s or early 90s on the SAD.Thats one thing that the plant based gurus greatly exaggerate...they portray those on the SAD as fat and sick which is great for selling their books but it's exaggerated ....and when they say its not science to point out the unscientific nature of personal experience I say to them they have no business at all talking about science when they violate the most important tenant that makes something science.....

    that is trying to prove ones ideas false....(Karl Popper-"The Logic Of Scientific Discovery")
    max9821 replied to jc3737's response:
    Neither low carb nor high carb is a panacea. People die from things that have nothing to do with diet or degenerative diseases. Actually, we can know how anyone's individual diet is working by successive angiograms. But who would be crazy enough to submit to an invasive procedure unless absolutely necessary. I would have been one of esselstyn's patients who refused another angiogram.

    We also can't see behind closed doors to know exactly how pain free and healthy someone is before the grim reaper calls.

    We have to choose a woe. Whether that be SAD, paleo, McDougall or any other. My own mother lived to be 91 but was in very poor health having agreed to by pass surgery about 15 years before she died. My grandfather was hale and hearty until he moved in with my mom who was totally devoted to him. So she didn't think the chicken wing and greens and bread he ate was healthy so she "built him up" with butter and milk and "healthy meat" and had to sneak these things into his food because he really didn't like them. He went down hill which I believe was from mom's loving care until he died at 91.

    engineerguy replied to max9821's response:
    Hi folks,

    It concerns me that someone is getting GERD. Google Barrett's disease. That's not great. It may take some time to track down what is causing the heartburn. I am curious what you find. For myself, I get heartburn when I break the diet. But we are all individuals, of course, so I will be most appreciative to learn how others react. I did notice that I could get heartburn from too much sourdough bread, of all things.

    Hi Crow,

    Re: "Another thing that convinces me is the large number of posters I communicate with either directly or by PMs that have had nothing but failure with the McDougall WOE."

    What sort of failures are we talking about? Also, what is a WOE?

    Do not forget. The Atkins diet often does give someone a low cholesterol number, but a low cholesterol number, in an Atkins diet situation, does not mean good artery health. The Masai clearly prove that, in spite of being very lean and athletic, Dr. Mann reversed his position, and said they have atherosclerosis like the elderly in the US. My brother-in-law lost weight on the Atkins diet, and had low cholesterol, and died in his sleep at 68 years old, of a heart attack. That is merely an anecdote for us, but for him it was the entire story.

    Dr. Fleming published a comparison on blood flow to the heart, between a Pritikin like diet, and some of the same group who adopted the Atkins diet to lose weight. Blood flow to the heart was measured by myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI), before and after the study. After a year, the Pritikin like group improved blood flow to the heart, and the Atkins group significantly worsened.(1)

    Do not forget the excellent results published by Pritikin and Esselstyn. Where is any data from high fat/protein people, to document improved health (not low cholesterol numbers)? Atkins and Pritikin both started in the 1970's. There has been plenty of time for data to originate. But Dr Atkins and Jimmy Moore themselves, failed to be successful even to keep weight off, or to be healthy.

    Re: ".However Heretics arguments are more convincing to me especially when combined with my own personal experience."

    Could you be more specific?

    Best regards, EngineerGuy

    engineerguy replied to engineerguy's response:
    And do not forget the amazing powers of antioxidants and phytochemicals.

    We are seeing studies that vegetables lengthen telomers on chromosomes, up-regulate and down-regulate good and bad genes, and reduce gene methylation, a form of DNA damage.

    These phytochemicals improve the health of every part of the body. They strengthen the immune system, they promote beneficial bacterial flora in the intestines, and reduce risk of heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, cancer etc, in hundreds of studies.

    Heretic is silent on all this. He eats a cup of fat, a cup of meat and a cup of vegetables daily. A cup of vegetables is far too little. He seems to say that if you eat his diet, you will be so healthy you don't need significant phytochemicals. Yet he has no data at all.

    Eating animal products promotes gut bacteria that creates TMAO, and promoted heart disease. Eating plants promote healthful gut bacteria.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy)
    jc3737 replied to max9821's response:
    Dolores,I think even the plant based guys have poor health in the end so I think its a myth that only SADieters live their last years in poor health.I think psychological factors and beliefs are far more important in how well and how long we live....which is not to say diet is irrelevant...its just not the main factor.

    Yes,I do think those who eat a plant based diet all their lives might live a bit longer and perhaps have a little less trouble at the end......but the difference is not nearly as great as advertised.

    In trying to figure out why a plant based diet does not make a bigger difference I have come up with a few things....when life is extended due to cardio improvement on a low fat diet that same diet may be lacking something else that causes illness to take a different path such as any rate everyone seems to diet at about the same age and with similar problems at the end of life.

    That would explain why the total mortality figures are not all that different acrosss the world and why diet does not make a great difference.For you (with heart disease)Esseys diet may be the best....for me with hypertension and high blood sugar a plant based low sodium diet works....for some a plant based diet works and for some its not very effective.

    I beak my diet at Thanksgiving and Christmas due to family celebrations and my digestion always improve when I eat fewer starches and fiber and get more fat...go figure.

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