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    engineerguy posted:
    Hi folks,

    I faintly remember Heretic posting the same message a this Dr Greger discussion. Heretic said, to my recollection, that people lost more calcium in the urine after eating high protein diets, because they absorbed more calcium. Everyone else said the calcium came out of the bones.

    I post this, because it is one of only 2 examples I can recall, where Heretic was right. The first is when I said we could not live without carbs, and Heretic corrected me.

    I also remember Heretic saying that Dr. Greger could not be trusted as a reliable source of information. So, you be the judge if this counts or not. Heretic, if you're there, we all love you.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy (Stacy)
    jc3737 responded:
    He's listening but is very very busy and doesn't have much time to post anymore.

    But we need to remember that people on whole food vegan diets don't get osteoporosis whatever the reason may be.
    max9821 replied to jc3737's response:
    jc, I am not convinced that people on whole food vegan diets do not get osteoporosis. In the first place you can eat a healthful vegan diet or an unhealthful one. For instance what if you ate a macrobiotic whole foods diet with very little greens or other vegetables or fruits.

    What if you ate a completely healthful whole foods diet but got no sun or exercise?

    And very few of us were eating a whole foods vegan diet more than a few years and only started after serious health problems. While eating a healthful plant diet might heal heart problems would it do the same for osteoporosis? I do not know.

    Whatever the relationship between protein, calcium and osteoporosis, it seems to be true that those countries which eat the most dairy which contains lots of protein and calcium are also the ones with the highest fracture rates.

    While it may be true that you can live without carbs and on a ketogenic diet I have to wonder for how long and how healthfully. Look at the diets children are being fed. Starting with cow's milk or perhaps soy milk formula instead of six months of breast milk alone followed by several months of continued nursing. Then all kinds of processed foods loaded with salt, fat and sugar and scarcely a vegetable in sight. And these kids can do well in school and participate on sports teams and grow into adults who reproduce and so on. Eventually their poor diets will catch up to them and we do not know how long you can exist on a ketogenic diet.

    Certainly epileptic children often show serious side effects on a ketogenic diet and it is only used as a last resort because of the side effects.

    Of course humans can survive in ketosis. It developed as an evolutionary backup. Kind of like that little tire they put in cars as a spare nowadays. You can drive on it until you get to somewhere where a regular tire can be put on but you are not advised to use it as a permanent tire.

    Even the eskimos who are probably genetically adapted through thousands of years on their mostly meat diet greedily eat carbs when they can get them. Even going so far as to open the stomachs of the slaughtered migrating herd animals and eating the contents for the grasses the animals ate.

    jc3737 replied to max9821's response:
    You are probably right about vegans getting osteoporosis....they may get too much sugar or not enough greens,or not enough calories.
    ..or enough sunlight or exercise.

    But those cultures that live almost entirely or starches don't have anywhere near the rate of osteoporosis the western cultures have.

    What about EG and other healthy eating vegans that get bone loss or osteoporosis?I'm willing to bet
    its because they are too thin because they don't get enough calories.We know they get enough sunlight and exercise so it must be the calories.
    max9821 replied to jc3737's response:
    I was on the net trying to find some credible evidence about osteoporosis, diet, vitamins etc. I could not, in the short time I was looking, find anything that didn't have another article disagreeing with it.

    I read that the elderly in nursing homes have less hip fracture with a combination of calcium and vitamin D. That in the elderly, more protein means less bone fracture. I also read that the eskimos and scandinavians have what might be the highest rate of osteoporosis.

    The eskimo eat plenty of protein and also bones from the fish which means they are getting plenty of protein and calcium. Of course they do not get vitamin D from plenty of sunshine but they do consume fish and oils which have D.

    Scandinavians consume lots of dairy.

    Bantu women consume only about 350 mgs calcium per day, give birth to and nurse several children and do not get osteoporosis.

    Osteoporosis and hip fracture has been increasing all over the world except in some places where it increased then leveled out.

    One article said fruits and vegetables are known to help prevent osteoporosis.

    If the rates of hip and spine fracture are increasing in the US then it has to be mostly among meat, fat and dairy eaters primarily because there are lots more of them and only a very few percent of the population are vegan. So go to any hospital or nursing home and count the number of hip fractures and determine what percentage of patients are vegan and what percent meat and dairy eaters. There should be a smaller number of vegan fracture patients simply because there are far fewer vegans. If there are lots of them compared to meat eaters, or lots of them percentage wise compared to all vegans then that says something too.

    If protein is important in preventing osteoporosis and improving bone health does that mean that beans and other high protein plant foods will do the job as well? Or not?


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