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    high fat dairy
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    jc3737 posted:
    www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/6/10/2626/pdf
     
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    EngineerGuy responded:
    Hi jc, The result was surprising. However, the results were "wretched" when compared to any of the programs we follow (Fuhrman, Ornish, etc.) In the study, note by far, the greatest reduction in health risk was from Vegetables and Fruit. Since everyone in the study was on some variation of the SAD (even in Sweden), the variations in results from dairy fat are a surprise, but a huge step backward for us. The study noted the benefits of the Mediterranean diet, but we have seen that Esselstyn's results are in a different universe, improved over the Mediterranean diet. Best regards, EngineerGuy
     
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    jc3737 responded:
    I still don't understand why high fat dairy would be healthier than low fat dairy.If fat is bad for us then each mg of fat should incremently increase health risk.It does just the opposite in many studies. You are correct when you point out that the study does not make comparisons to a diet like the Fuhrman diet.That would make an interesting study.
     
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    Louise_WebMD_Staff responded:
    Could it be two factors-one that these are farmers-so lead incredibly active lifestyles and two the dairy may be from their own farms-so reducing / changing the pathogens in the dairy and exposure to processing that could be part of the problem with high fat foods?
     
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    EngineerGuy responded:
    Hi jc, i Re: If fat is bad for us then each mg of fat should incremently increase health risk. Don't forget that this study simply gave people one food questionaire, and followed them for over 10 years, with no further questionaires. The study is not very sensitive. I agree with you, that the results are surprising, none the less. The China Study was valuable because it studied much larger variations in diet, and much more accurately measured the diet. Furthermore, most of the people lived in a locale for their entire lives. Contrast this with headlines some years ago, that breast cancer was suspected of being elevated in Long Island. It was suspected of being 25% higher than the national average. For the number of people being monitored, and the difference in incidence (25%), it was difficult to know for sure that there was any true difference in the cancer rate. Also, most of the people in Long Island had moved there (high mobility). The diet in Long Island was pretty similar to the nation as a whole. In China, some cancers had 100X difference in incidence. 10,000%, not 25%, as in Long Island. The China Study was an opportunity for much stronger epidemiological information. Best regards, EngineerGuy
     
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    jc3737 responded:
    Louise, I can see the second reason being plausible,but i'm not sure an active lifestyle alone could account for the difference.Some studies have shown an active lifestlye can not make up for a poor diet,but a very very active lifestyle can.Farmers don't get the degree of cardio to make THE big difference
     
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    jc3737 responded:
    I would like to see the raw data collected in the China Study.Our library does not have it.Has anyone seen the data tables?
     
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    EngineerGuy responded:
    Hi jc, i Re: I would like to see the raw data collected in the China Study That's why we have computers. Best regards, EngineerGuy
     
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    jc3737 responded:
    Can you give me a link to the raw data tables?Thanks.
     
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    EngineerGuy responded:
    Hi jc, i Re: Can you give me a link to the raw data tables? Thanks. LOL I have no idea where, but I believe it is available. Best of luck. Have you ever done a statistical study? Frankly, I'd rather read the Cliff Notes version. I don't have an ax to grind, so I'll rely on the conclusions of people who want to improve our understanding of health, and have spent years analyzing the data. All Heretic needed to know is that, combining all cancers together, there was no correlation between cancer and dietary components. I pointed out many times that there are many different types of cancers, with different causes. For example, smoking correlates strongly with lung cancer, but not diet. Smoking rates are very high in Asia. So, lumping lung cancer and all cancers together, would greatly weaken any correlation to diet. But, Heretic only wanted to support his conclusion, not drive to the truth. That's the ultimate reason Heretic was banned from many websites. Sorry I cannot help. Best regards, EngineerGuy
     
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    jc3737 responded:
    I hope that you are not implying you support banning in any way.I lived through that kind of behavior in the 1960s.....Mayor Daily,Agnew,Nixon,Halderman...etc Remember "America,Love it or Leave it"....which meant....support us...your government...President Nixon and the Vietman War OR you are not a loyal American who loves this country.. Great example of a false dicotomy. Just because you think Heretic did not want to get at the truth does NOT mean you are right anymore that Heretic was right when he said the same thing about you....or did he say that about you? Herectic being banned from a website says FAR more about the web site than about Heretic.Like you he was always polite and never resorted to insults...and some do... Remember the guy who called anyone who disagreed with him "kool aid drinkers"...and kept saying Heretic did our thinking for us...constant insults from that guy....but never from Heretic. Its a compliment to Web MD diet debate and Ornish message boards that Heretic was never banned as he was from the McDougall site. ...the McDougall board...now there's a joke....its hard to imagine any free thinker ever supporting that board....like think is very dangerous....very very dangerous to a free and open society. I guess you have noticed that when someone new on this board asks for advice on diet I do not respond as you and Heretic do....thats because I don't know....I don't know the answers...I do not have a firm opinion...not yet But I do know that free and open questioining and debate is essential to get at truth and is a healthy thing.It take two sides to have a debate...it takes constant questioning. And I do have a firm opinion on that. Dolores once said you should not go into a church and voice opposite opinions of what that church was saying....but I had a relative who did just that....when the church was preaching segregation in the 1950s my relative spoke up and disagreed.... So If Heretic disagrees with the like- think of the McDougall board he should speak up.My defense of Heretic was never a defense of his diet so much as defense of his right to question.. Even in someones elses church.
     
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    EngineerGuy responded:
    Hi jc, Your post really has nothing to do with my post, that you were answering. Please re-read the last paragraph of my post. That was a clear example of where Heretic insisted on analyzing data in a way that sounded favorable to his beliefs, even though his method of analysis (only considering total cancer deaths), was clearly designed to hide the truth, instead of determine the truth. That has nothing to do with freedom of expression. That has to do with twisting the truth. That was ultimately why people banned him from their websites, not to silence a questioning mind. You have agreed that the Masai had diseased arteries, just like Dr. Mann said in his abstract. Heretic never did. He posted that Ornish was an unhealthy diet, because he followed something that sounded like Ornish, but was quite different, and very deficient in lots of nutrients, and he even included things that he could not digest. He simple ignored the truth. You listened to him, and you were puzzled at my success, and DMW's success. We are typical, not puzzling. But you believed Heretic, who dismissed the truth. He disregarded the China Study, as unscientific. Who knows why?! Yes, truth does take constant questioning, but not constant distortions!! Best regards, EngineerGuy
     
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    jc3737 responded:
    YES,It has EVERYTHING to do with your post....everything........"a way of analyzing data in a way that sounded favorable to his beliefs"...the same could be said of all of us "Clearly designed to hide the truth"....Heretic and others may say the same thing could be said of you You seem to think its you who gets to determine who is not after truth,who is twisting the truth, who is anayzing data correctly,who is being scientific,and who is WORTHY of being banned. Truth does take constant questioning,but not constant distotions...agreed... but you don't get to decide who is distorting anymore than Heretic does.He may say its you doing the distorting. PUZZLED about success....I'm puzzled all right...but not JUST about your success.....I'm puzzled that two opposite approaches....yours and Heretic's BOTH work.....how can both work and yet are as far apart as you can get....very puzzling You said I listened to Heretic....I did.... but I also listened to you,Dolores,DMW,and others. You said I believed Heretic....not exactally....I have stated MANY times I do not know who is right and thats why I don't offer any advice when someone new asks for help...I don't YET have a strong conviction...I'm working on it. You may remember that I also questioned and debated Heretic many ,many times.I akways admired the way he took my disagreeing with him,questioning him and challenging him. I am defending the way Heretic handles debate,questioning and disagreement....I am not agreeing with his diet...I am defending his right to question...just as I would defend your right if you were debating on the Weston A Price (or some low carb board)messsage board. Since Heretic is gone,I am left to to do the questioning...otherwise we have no debate...only a very dangerous like-think....then we become the McDougall board,which I still read from time to time when I need a good laugh.
     
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    EngineerGuy responded:
    Hi jc, You make a great contribution to the board. You provide many informative posts, and make it interesting. Thanks. :-) I feel bad talking about Heretic with him not here. He had a way of getting under a person's skin. :-) Best regards, EngineerGuy
     
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    jc3737 replied to EngineerGuy's response:
    Have you found the new diet debate board?

    http://exchanges.webmd.com/diet-debate


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