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    jc3737 responded:
    jc3737 replied to jc3737's response:

    While the diet is mostly vegetables...there are a number of starches in the diet....also meat on the weekends...also cheese and wine.
    An_192694 replied to jc3737's response:
    Hi jc,

    These are a validation of Fuhrman, Ornish, etc. Thanks for the interesting posts. :-)

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    jc3737 replied to An_192694's response:
    They do in some ways validate those diets but in some ways they differ.I don't think the Ornish diet would recommend cheese,wine,goats milk,and some(limited) meat.

    I watched the special on TV where Dr OZ visited Sardinia(ate beans, bread,goats milk and cheese with an old man) and tried to keep up with the 100 yr old man as he cut cane....the man was healthy, strong, vigirous, and active.
    dtms1 replied to jc3737's response:
    I remember my grandfather at dinners. He would eat lots of pasta and bread and some olive oil and lots and lots of greens, cooked and raw. He picked his own dandelions and something called poke. Also picked his own mushrooms. Never drank milk,even in coffee, and when he ate meat and cheese, which he certainly did, he ate very small portions of bony meat like chicken necks and the bony parts of other animals and very small portions of hard cheese, (nothing like the processed softer stuff we eat here). He was in his eighties when he was walking five miles there and back to the field where he picked his greens. He made his own wine and drank a bit of it every now and then and I remember when I was a kid he had a shot of whiskey in his breakfast coffee every morning. Never used sugar but white crusty Italian bread was always part of his lunch and dinner. Also ate beans and other vegetables but never ate as much as the rest of the family. Would absolutely never ever eat any fruit or vegetable that was not in season. Loved to buy at roadside fruit and vegetable stands of which there were many many more than there are today. So I am guessing that his food had plenty of nourishment since he liked to buy it right from the farm and very little of it was shipped a distance.

    jc3737 replied to dtms1's response:
    Just goes to show...its more complicated than we realize.It would be hard to duplicate the way your grandfather lived unless we lived on a farm,so we are left to figure out what else works.
    dtms1 replied to jc3737's response:
    jc, the one thing we can figure out is that the cheese in a macdonalds hamburger is not the same cheese as the sardinians eat so we shouldn't sit down to a big mac and think fat and cheese are not harmful.
    We can figure out that grass fed meat eaten only a couple of times a week is not the same as industrial meat eaten several times a day. And we can figure out that with few exceptions, and given the various availability of foods, that a diverse plant based diet seems to do the trick with most cultures.

    My grandfather didn't live on a farm but at the time there were lots of farms outside of Philly in New Jersey where he could buy fresh produce. I went to a farmers market near me in the winter one time and saw tomatoes for sale. They had to have been trucked in from far away because where I live you just don't get the first tomato until sometime in august. So people who shop in farmers markets are fooling themselves if they think they are supporting local growers when they buy tomatoes in January.,

    josvin84 replied to dtms1's response:
    It is not only the healthy diet but also the daily physical activities that these (old) men engage in.
    EngineerGuy replied to dtms1's response:
    Hi Dolores,

    Great observations, as always.

    Re: We can figure out that grass fed meat eaten only a couple of times a week is not the same as industrial meat eaten several times a day.

    The meat consumed in the China Study was from grass fed cows, and everyone was very surprised that adding the small amount of meat in the 2nd quartile, more than the lowest quartile, correlated with heart disease, cancer, etc. In other words, the emphasis today on hormone and antibiotic contamination, etc etc, probably is not as important as the meat itself, in affecting our health.

    Note that there was no vegan population in the China Study, or any other large study, so we do not have data as to whether vegan is healthier than a small amount of meat.

    Best regards, EngineerGuy
    josvin84 replied to EngineerGuy's response:
    I looked up life expectancy tables by country and found that Japan, Hong Kong, Iceland, Switzerland and Australia have life expectancy of 81 years. Sardinians have a life exp. of 81 years. Diets in these group of countries are definitely varied as well the climate.

    Sardinia, and Okinawa, stand at the top of the list for number of centerians per 22 per 100000 inhabitants but 99978 per 100000 live just as long as those in Hong Kong.
    jc3737 replied to josvin84's response:
    As I understand it infant mortality is an important factor in life expectancy.The book on the Green Zones makes it clear which are the longest lived/healthiest peoples on earth.

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