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    Kratom addiction??
    kssziggy posted:
    I am having a hard time finding anything on this subject? I have a family member who is on anti-depressants and addicted to kratom. I don't know if they interfere with one another or not. I just know that months after being on the anti-dep. (I'm not sure which one?), I see no progress in him. Actually, he seems worse: more depressed, severe weight gain, no ambition or motivation, many days will not get out of bed, etc. I have urged him for a couple of years now to see a professional. All he will do is go to a general dr. who does not even give him a thorough mental evaluation......he just prescribes these meds and sends him on his way. My family member seems just fine with that and continues to take them plus kratom just about every day. It is so frustrating, I try to help and offer advice, offer to make the dr. appt. and take him there. But I know he is not going to get better until he decides to do something about it - no one can make him. All I know from kratom is from what I read googling it: it is in the narcotics family, in leaf form - similar to tobacco, widely used in Thailand, herbal sold on the internet. He will take the crushed leaves in a spoon and eat them. He says it helps his mood. I can tell he is beyond that now and addicted. It seems to not help his mood at all and I wonder if it is doing harm mixing with anti-dep.? Is anyone familiar with a kratom addiction and/or it being mixed with anti-dep.? Thanks!
    raymond1974 responded:
    Kratom is said to have opiate like properties (oxycodone, hydrocode, etc). I believe it can be addictive, but not as much as opiates prior mentioned. Im not sure on how it would conflict with anti-depressents, but from what I know, kratom more or less helps put you in a relaxed state, and it is a mood enhancer. I dont think the kratom would make him more depressed, but I dont think it will help him become less depressed either.

    My initial thoughts would be to have him go back to his doctor, and try some other sort of anti-depressants. SSRI's from what Ive read arent the greatest anti-depressants (not sure if this is the type of anti-depressant he is on or not). From everything Ive read, Bupriorion (wellbutrin) is supposed to be the best, both for depression as well as have a positive effect on body composition. With this said, he may also need some therapy, as drugs arent always going to be the answer (or at least without some sort of therapy). Again, Im not a doctor, so my advice is to encourage him to go and get a re-evaluation from a doc, and possibly switch medications. Bottom line, depending on his situation and what sort of anti-depressants he is on, could largely influence whether or not Kratom is having a positive or negative effect on him.
    rick3021958 responded:
    Hi Ziggy, Ley me just tell you this, it is the plant from HELL, Mail me at [email protected], There are not enough wordsfor me to tell you about this subject, mail me with your phone number and I will take you through step by step, there is no other person in the world that can tell you what I can tell you about this stuff, My information is real and the truth, I will help your family member..Rick
    an_apple_a_day responded:
    I've been reading a lot about not only Kratom addiction but kratom helping with addiction. The natual opiate substitute is being considered by many to kick habits. If this works, I think this is excellent. I also think that people do better if its "self treated" as they feel more commited to make it work. I think its an ego thing. There are a tonne of information sites that cover this in more detail. Here are a couple of the better ones for those of you who are interested in kratom:
    Taximan283 responded:
    I've just been reading up on this Herb too. Rick, you sound like you have personal experience with this stuff. So why don't you post what you know. I'd be very interested in hearing what you have to say.

    I think someone was using this here several years ago. From what I read I don't think it's so much like an opiate, as it is like a mild psychedelic drug. It's probably way more powerful than Pot, and much milder than LSD. In addition to that it does seem to have some tranquilizing properties. I think the bottom line with Kratom is it's more of something to get you high than it is to use as a medication. And the site I was reading stated outright that even though it's not physically addictive, it's certainly psychologically addictive, especially if you use it almost everyday.

    So I agree. !st this guy needs to stop using Kratom, and then maybe he can be helped.

    But when it comes to learning about a new drug I have always believed in asking someone who has used it. So I hope you post again Rick.
    Sillywings responded:
    I've been using Kratom for the past year and I know this is late but I must rectify the misinformation being presented on this board. Kratom isn't the "plant from hell", nor is it "stronger than pot" nor even a psychedelic.

    Kratom brings about a very benign feeling, more like that first cup of coffee in the morning than a strong narcotic - it softly lifts you to that natural feeling you have when you're in a good mood. This assists with all sorts of things - in my case it helps with my social anxiety; with Kratom I can face people and talk normally without being overpowered by a lousy mood.

    I hope your relative is doing better these days, but if not I would definitely get him off the SSRI as it's been known to cause the effects you describe in many people - just Google for it. Many people lose all ambition and become more depressed, and many others even exhibit violent tendencies (i.e. the Columbine killers were on SSRIs). It makes sense if you understand how these drugs work on the brain - they have a very dangerous track-record and I'm surprised their use is encouraged so widely for so many problems - the brain isn't simple like that where all problems can be rectified by a pill. I suggest anyone thinking of taking anything DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, there is plenty online about both SSRIs and Kratom.
    corlaw responded:
    Speaking from past experience with my teenage daughter ssri's are awful for people if its BIPOLAR and not just depression, We found this out the hard way with her, they worked for about a 3 weeks then symptoms came back worse than before. I would try and see if you could contact his family doctor and possibly get him an appointment and go with him and ask about possible bipolar,,, also I know what you mean about those drugs from PCP, they are given out too quickly without proper physciatric eval.... Good luck and I hope you can convince them to get help....
    rjammer responded:
    I realize this is an old thread, but maybe this'll help some people.

    As a 1-year Kratom user (Bali), I absolutely refute the, "It's probably way more powerful than Pot, and much milder than LSD" statement. I used marijuana multiple times daily some 15 years ago, and a moderate dosage is nowhere near as powerful as your then-average joint. Furthermore, as former LSD user -- it's nowhere near LSD. Granted, I don't take Kratom recreationally, nor ever have, but I use it as a substitute for prescription pain medication, which it works decently in that capacity.

    After experimenting with which type worked best for my pain, I settled on Bali (A.K.A. PC, premium commercial). 5 grams of this is, to me, roughly equivalent to 10mg of hydrocodone, both in terms of pain relief and sensation. It messes with your eyes a bit, and it can cause nausea and headaches, in some people, but it's been a good alternative to narcotics. It can cause constipation, it does make you dehydrated, and aside from it being used for hundreds of years with few reports of adverse effects, I have no idea if it is harmful for long-term use, other than potentially messing with your pain / pleasure center.

    I was just prescribed celexa, which is how I found this thread. From the little I know about antidepressents, the symptoms you're mentioning fit those type of drugs. However, I have experienced mood swings on Kratom, but only when going through withdrawal.

    Kratom may provide a not-as-dangerous-as-the-alternatives 'high' once in a while, it's certainly not a good solution for pill-poppers and full-time 'druggies'. Take it regularly and you lose that 'high' feeling. Though, maybe you can take more to achieve it again, but I normally take 3-4g for moderate pain, and 5-6 grams for pain that I could use a narcotic for. I've not used it for the apparent recreational value.

    As far as it being a mood enhancer -- I would totally say yes, at least for a while. If I've gone a day or two without taking it, and I have to take it again, I definitely sense a better mood. It's really a powerful mood enhancer, if you ask me. If you take it daily, however, you'll end up taking it just to avoid the withdrawal symptoms and I don't sense much of anything other than pain relief when taking it daily / multiple times daily.

    Maybe this'll help somebody. I just came here looking for potential interactions with SSRIs, but figured I would chime in, too.
    Taximan283 replied to rjammer's response:
    I think I made the statement you quoted, and it was based on what I read, not personal experience. The one guy who posted about it that said he had extensive information wouldn't email me. He wanted my phone # and I wasn't going to give it to him. So Kratom remains a mystery drug. Once I heard it has wds I no longer would try it. I have enough problems with wds from opiates. The other bottom line for me, is that I'm way past taking anything that isn't FDA regulated. Nowadays I only take bona fide drugs that have known and proven value. Which is almost a shame since you say it kills pain. Because pain is why I'm on opiates. Not that I don't enjoy them, but I don't take them for that reason. I take them for pain. So I almost was about to consider Kratom, and then you said it has wds. So why take it.

    I have a question for you. If it's such a great mood enhancer why are you going on Celexa? SSRI's are very unreliable, IMO. I mean the chances are there is 1 out there that may help you. But you can spend over 1 year looking for it. Considering many need up to 3 months to work. I don't take SSRI's. I prefer drugs with more immediate actions. I regulate my own meds and I can't do that when I can't feel exactly what a drug is doing to me.

    Just out of curiosity, is Kratom illegal? Where do you get it, and what does it cost?
    rjammer replied to Taximan283's response:
    I've noticed that is has an affect on my mood if I'm off it for a couple of days and then take it again. Others have reported that it can elevate one's mood regardless of their duration of usage (people using it 1 years daily), but that's not my experience. Though, wintertime has been bad for me (mood / emotionally) for several years, so maybe my predisposition to the 'blues' during the past 5 months didn't allow me to notice any mood-enhancing abilities that it might possess even during daily usage.

    As far as taking Celexa -- I didn't ask for it, the doctor I visited told me he wanted me to take it. Over the last 2 days, the snow here has melted and it's like I've been reborn into a warm and bright new world, so I seriously doubt I will be taking this drug.

    Some of Kratom's active ingredients trigger the opoid receptors in the brain -- delta, primarily, but also mu in higher doses. Which, this would explain the pain-killing properties, and I assume the feeling of betterment. This is also why, I assume, it feels like it works like vicodin, because it triggers the same brain areas.

    I don't know about other narcotics because I've not taken anything stronger than a 7.5/500 vicodin in years, but there is a cross-tollerance between Kratom and Vicodin. Which, this means that if you have a high tolerance for opioids, you're not likely going to get 'high' from Kratom unless you have a super-high dosage. This also means that Kratom can potentially help mitigate the withdrawal effects of narcotic pain medication. If you do any amount of research through user forums, you'll see, time and time again, where people are using Kratom to minimize the effects of their withdrawal symptoms from Vicodin, Oxycodone, Oxycontin, and others.

    I've been taking Kratom for a year, multiple times daily except maybe a small handful of times. However, a bit ago , one of my teeth broke and subsequently resulted in an infection, and I was put on Vicodin (which, the reason I asked for it was because I upped my dosage of Kratom to deal with the pain, but couldn't afford to buy more at the time). I've had no withdrawals from Kratom even though I haven't taken it over a week. I can't say from personal experience whether the opposite is true (as many, many people report), but I would believe it to be so. Going forward, I hope I never have to take narcotic pain medication on a long-term basis. It's great for short pain relief, but I hate what it does to me after being on it for months, especially since I found something that works in largely the same way, and doesn't make me feel drugged or like I'm living under a murky, gray cloud.

    As far as the legality, from what I know, it's illegal in some / most of the countries where it grows natively: Malaysia, Thailand, and other far-east countries. I believe it's legal in North America / Europe, but there could be some cities / counties where there may be laws against it. I don't really know, though, and I'm not overly concerned with the legality. Not enough to look it up from authoritative websites anyway.

    I'm not going to share my source because I don't want to jeopardize my account there. Several Kratom vendors strictly prohibit ingestion and sell it as incense, which is dumb because I've never heard of anybody using it as incense. It's probably to get around laws concerning medicine / herbal supplements. You can do a Google search for 'buy kratom' to find plenty of sources (look at the paid results, specifically). Do research on a company before buying from them, however.

    I pay $80-$100 per month for the powder and capsules for 2x-5x daily doses. If I bought in bigger lots, I would probably pay around $70 per month.

    All this said - Kratom is unregulated, and there's no guaranteed consistency in terms of batch-by-batch active ingredients, even from the same supplier. It's not a medicine -- it's a leaf from a tree that is native to Eastern countries. It works for me, though, and I'm happy I fo
    janashell replied to Sillywings's response:
    I use kratom as well and have done so over many years... you are right, this is not the plant from hell, but rather is very nice. Its people like this in here that bring the government into all things and put restraints on plant life which should be perfectly legal and our own choice. If a person has a problem with a plant then they need to seek help, that saddens me that one could become overcome by a plant and cause others to meddle thinking action needs to be taken legally..
    lets all just mind our own business and love one another and stop trying to micro manage everybodies lives.
    that sounds wonderful to me..
    Taximan283 replied to janashell's response:
    I'm sorry jana, but I have to answer what you said. I still don't know what Kratom is, nor what it does, but I have to object to what you said on general principle. I once said what you said about Kratom, only I said it about Pot. I felt it was my business if I wanted to smoke Pot, and no one had a right to say anything else to me. The catch was that I was not working and supporting myself. Even when I did work, I still wasn't supporting myself. I was buying Pot and going out to party every weekend. The tragic thing is that due to the effects of Pot I thought this was quite alright. I had a person in my life who could be said to have been a major enabler. This person was making it possible for me to do this. When I lost this person, and eveything both of us owned, I had to quit Pot. I now see where I was wrong, in both idea and behavior. So if you can use this Kratom, and not have it interfere with being a fully functioning, responsible adult, then you may have a point. Of course others who use it would also have to be unaffected by it in the way I just said. There was also a time I saw nothing wrong with drinking and driving because I could handle doing it. Yes I could, but every week someone who cannot, kills someone. So now I agree that DUI must be illegal. Too many people cannot handle it.

    So the guy who originally called Kratom the plant from hell would not elaborate on what he meant. Since you disagree, maybe you want to tell me what you think this drug does for you?
    janashell replied to Taximan283's response:
    well i have as well smoked my share of pot in my life.. however herbs effect everybody differently... i will not disagree that chemical drugs effect everybody in a negative way ruining their lives, however herbs are a totally different story. I for one had no trouble with pot. I could smoke a bowl and go to work or school (working on ba for sociology) and get great grades 3.65 and build my own business. My point is that just becuase some people cannot handle the effects of certain plant material does not give our government the right to come in and say that we are not allowed to partake in the plant if we like and are responsible adults and can be productive while on the plant. I am glad that you realized your situation and that you are not able to be productive while smoking pot, but others, many many others that i know personally smoke pot on a daily basis and work just fine and are successful in their lives. However, there are some people that are just not able to do that. I completly understand...
    I happen to like kratom very well.. for me it is a mood enhancer. I guess almost what some people use caffeine for. So whats next, the government comes in and makes caffeine illegal? Guess what, thats a plant too.. See where I am going with this? There are so many substances that some people cannot handle ie: some people cant sleep so they get addicted to nyquil (however you spell ) or coffee, food is a huge addiction in America right now. I just did a research paper for my ma over obesity in America.. so whats next?? Making fatty foods illegal? My entire point to all of this is that some people can handle certain things and some simply cannot, That is a personal problem, but it does not give anybody the right to tell us that we are not allowed and will actually be jailed if we put certain things in our very own bodies. its just not right. period.
    KathrynHeath0707 replied to janashell's response:
    Apparently, no one on this forum even knows very much about Kratom. Well I will tell you about it. I am an ex Kratom user and I am also an ex Kratom addict. Every day for almost a year I took Kratom. I never really had many withdrawal problems until I experimented with the full spectrum tincture. Then the withdrawals started happening.... they were terrible. 3 days of living hell, 4 weeks of pure depression and panic attacks, and now I have occasional panic attacks still after a year of being off of Kratom.
    I will have to say Kratom is exactly like an opiate feeling. It does not help for pain very much but it does enhance mood. You do not experience withdrawals until after months of using large doses and it is overall very safe to use.
    I really enjoyed Kratom for a long time until I used the tincture and would experience withdrawals in between orders. The withdrawals are 100x worse than anything I have ever felt from an opiate withdrawal and was very hard to handle. But, I had also spent 6 months on Kratom powder and capsules and never had a withdrawal from those.
    Pretty much, what I am trying to say is that Kratom is wonderful in moderation and in the normal form. Do not experiment with tinctures and extracts.... you are just asking for trouble.
    As for the original post on the forum, I promise you Kratom is probably enhancing his mood and not causing the issues he is having. The issues he is having is from a slack *** doctor who is prescribing him medication that is making him upset. Doctors are often the cause of problems instead of actually fixing the problem.
    I figured I would answer everyone's questions about Kratom just so everyone knows the real truth about it and what it does and what it feels like.
    janashell replied to KathrynHeath0707's response:
    beg to differ.. i do know very much about kratom.. and yes you are right, stay away from the tincture..
    i do take my kratom in moderation.. anything in moderation is ok in my opinion. When you loose moderation you get obesity, addiction, ect. ect...
    i totally agree with you about the doctors being the cause of the problems.. they need to figure out what the problem is and perhaps even change dr's.

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